A different "Start from scratch" thread
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-01-2011, 07:31 PM
A different "Start from scratch" thread
I got the idea when I saw the other thread name.

So here's the deal. Let's pretend that no one has ever considered the concept of a god until just now. I have just posed the first ever "what if there's some kind of being that created everything?" question. It's still today, so we still have all the same scientific knowledge, but there's no Bible, no assumptions, no conflicting dogma, or established belief system to paraphrase from and cop out of the argument.

This is sort of a confirmation of beliefs thing. No holy texts mean that the response will be limited to theological logic instead of christian or muslim "logic," which should be a little less ridiculous. (Sidenote: why is it that only "muslim" gets the "error red squiggle line" under it and not christian? Is terrorism really that effective?)

Don't mind playing devil's advocate. I'll start it off for whoever wants to play along. Couple of Theology 101 arguments first:

-
-
Hey guys. You know how every finite thing that exists has a cause? Assuming that the universe is finite, it would have to have a first cause, correct? What if that first cause is some sort of sentient being, unaffected by causality due to its metaphysical nature or because the being itself is infinite?

Or perhaps this infinite being, through some yet undiscovered 5th Law of Thermodynamics, collapsed in on itself, transforming into the first instances of dark matter, carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. (I'm winging it, so it may sound like the big bang)

And have you noticed of complex and delicate life is? Not the makeup of our bodies, I know we evolved slowly into this state, but what about the necessity of the seasons, the perfect distance we are from the sun, the way things decompose and then are reformed into new things. Surely it makes sense that something designed the laws of nature to be this perfect.



Annnnd scene.

I'm not even bothering with the Ontological Argument, which I still consider I complete waste of human brain cells to think about, and a waste of text. All that text could be put to better use.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2011, 08:15 PM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
Arright, I'm game.

(18-01-2011 07:31 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Hey guys. You know how every finite thing that exists has a cause?

No.

Quote:And have you noticed of complex and delicate life is? Not the makeup of our bodies, I know we evolved slowly into this state, but what about the necessity of the seasons, the perfect distance we are from the sun, the way things decompose and then are reformed into new things. Surely it makes sense that something designed the laws of nature to be this perfect.

No, not really. Life as we know it could only have formed in a situation like this, true, but given the massive number of planets in the universe, it's pretty much guaranteed that at least one is going to meet those conditions.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2011, 09:18 PM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
I can totally digg the fifth law of thermodynamics one xP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 02:15 AM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
Undiscovered 5th Law of Thermal Dynamics? Wait until it is discovered, and then investigate the data, otherwise you are only fabricating stories. And when you fabricate stories your chances of being right are pretty damn low.

If religion didn't exist, this is the kind of answer you could expect. Everyone would be a skeptical atheist.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 03:25 AM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
(19-01-2011 02:15 AM)No J. Wrote:  If religion didn't exist, this is the kind of answer you could expect. Everyone would be a skeptical atheist.

Mental orgasm Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 02:10 PM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
Soudns like an interesting game.
_____________________________
If everything has to has a first cause, then how do you exclude the creator from the everything? If it would exist, it would obviously have to be a part of everything, and it would have to have a cause too.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 03:39 PM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
It actually hurts my brain to push past all this and continue with the argument. I feel I'm getting dumber by allowing logical loopholes into my pretend psyche. It seems like no matter what reasoning you use to arrive at the "beginning force" premise, turning that force into a deity is a forced mental hiccup.

-
-
But observe how the universe is constantly expanding. Following it back on a timeline, it would have to converge on a state of singularity. Something would've had to force that singularity into motion. It couldn't have just began expanding without provocation. It seems to me, that something would have to exist that is aware to purposely set the universe into motion. And since only beings have the capacity to be "aware" then it suggests there was some prime being.
-
-


This isn't making any sense. Plus I'm a little high.

I think it's harder for me to play theist because I know where most of the arguments end up if I ask them. Ex. the Thermodynamic argument (closed system response), Moral argument (many examples of immoral theists response), pascal's wager after suggesting a hell exists (any of the gods equally plausible argument).

And yes I'm patenting the 5th Law of Thermodynamics, which states that when 2 infinite forces collide, they disperse into finite particles... aka 2 gods high-fived and exploded on contact.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Lightbulb Energy creates but it doesn't imbue Deity.
I've lived way too much stress today, to think I'm even smart enough to participate in this. Not that that's going to stop me from at least being entertaining as a miserable failure. WinkAngel

I don't think there's really any conflict between cause unknown, given science at least recognizes rhythmic creative energy and atoms create what we imagine is solid form and thus, when humans are created/born it should come as no surprise that even though we originated from a source that humans do know of (reproductive process) we begin life as born atheists.


Go ahead say it. Take a couple of Aleve and a Nytol and log off, silly!
Tongue
Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 08:26 PM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
(19-01-2011 03:39 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  It actually hurts my brain to push past all this and continue with the argument. I feel I'm getting dumber by allowing logical loopholes into my pretend psyche. It seems like no matter what reasoning you use to arrive at the "beginning force" premise, turning that force into a deity is a forced mental hiccup.

I know. Seriously, trying to follow the train of thought they have for these arguments is painful for me. That's why my mind boggled when martinb59 - the forum's first really confrontational theist - asked me to try and defend theism and see what it did for my worldview.

I thought about it for about two seconds and then realized that, to be capable of doing that, I would have to stab myself in the frontal lobe with a Philips-head screwdriver.

Quote:But observe how the universe is constantly expanding. Following it back on a timeline, it would have to converge on a state of singularity. Something would've had to force that singularity into motion.

This still assumes the need for a cause. This need hasn't been shown.

Quote:This isn't making any sense. Plus I'm a little high.

It's got nothing to do with the weed, man.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2011, 09:52 PM
RE: A different "Start from scratch" thread
Quote:And yes I'm patenting the 5th Law of Thermodynamics, which states that when 2 infinite forces collide, they disperse into finite particles... aka 2 gods high-fived and exploded on contact.

You totally made my day with that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: