A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
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20-05-2015, 02:04 PM
A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
To the theist I say "You believe the god you worship is good. What if you're wrong ?"

If your god is evil, what would his book contain ?
Would it contain lies ? - Yes
Would it contain stories of genocide , immoral acts, slavery and death as a penalty for not worshipping him ? - Yes

Would it descride a place your soul would go after death, a place with a gate that you must pass through, a place that you can never leave and a place where you can be held directly with your rapist or the murderer of your spouse or children ? - Yes

We have a place like that on earth. Its called a prison.

Would an evil god do nothing while millions of children starve to death ? - Yes
Would an evil god think that rape is not a sin ? - Yes

In the book of an evil god, would it describe freedom as something you shouldn't desire, but instead insist that you obey ? - Yes

People have the image of hell as being a place of fire.
In most good cultures, fire is a source of warmth, to stave off the cold. We gather round it for protection from the creatures in the forest. We use it to cook our food and the sunlight from the largest source of fire near us, helps food to grow.

If we do have souls, my soul will be free to gather round the fire and explore the universe. Your soul will be imprisoned.

As you mentally go over all of the things contained in your book, does it match more with what an evil god would produce or not ?

After all, what if you're wrong ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-05-2015, 02:50 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
I doubt "god" is evil....

A blithering moron perhaps......

Probably not evil.......

And even more likely -- non-existent...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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20-05-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 02:04 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  After all, what if you're wrong ?

What would a good God look like?
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20-05-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 02:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 02:04 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  After all, what if you're wrong ?

What would a good God look like?

Excellent question!
Certainly not like old Yahweh!
The fact that "good', 'perfect' are highly contentious issues, makes for a hard callAngel
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20-05-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 02:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 02:04 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  After all, what if you're wrong ?

What would a good God look like?

Do you possess the ability to discern an act that increases health, well being and happiness from one that doesn't ?

Can you discern the actions of a good parent , a good police officer, a good fireman or a good doctor ?

If you can't tell the difference between a good god and an evil one, then that might be the problem right there.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-05-2015, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2015 06:05 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 05:32 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Do you possess the ability to discern an act that increases health, well being and happiness from one that doesn't ?

To some extent perhaps. But is it the discernment that makes one good though? You'll probably say no, it's acting in a way conducive to increasing health, well being and happiness. But what reason should one act in a way conducive to these things?
Or is the reason irrelevant?

Quote:Can you discern the actions of a good parent , a good police officer, a good fireman or a good doctor ?

Is Good all one and the same for all four individuals? So that when we say A Good God, do we mean Good in the same way we would of a good police officer? If not than I'm not sure how we're suppose to discern Good as if it where one thing, and one thing only. Good food is matter of taste, Good hygiene, is a matter of cleanliness. And all these individuals correspond to different relationship, one to a child, constituents of a municipality, a patient.

And is Good a matter of what people do, or who they are?

Quote:If you can't tell the difference between a good god and an evil one, then that might be the problem right there.

Some atheists argue that good and evil are illusions, others argue that they are purely subjective, a matter of ones likes and dislikes. And some like Stevil, claim to not know what Good is. So when an atheists use the term Good of Evil, I have to be mindful to ask what they mean by it.

Let's try this question a bit differently. Let's take the bible out of the question here. And imagine only an all powerful creator deity, who created our world. Could we say such a God who created a world like ours, is Evil?

In most early traditions that conceived of a creator deity, the attribute wasn't malevolence, but indifference. Would you agree? Or would you still believe that such a God would be evil, though the only basis to judge him by is his all powerful capacities, and the world he chose to create with it?
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20-05-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 05:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 05:32 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Do you possess the ability to discern an act that increases health, well being and happiness from one that doesn't ?

To some extent perhaps. But is it the discernment that makes one good though? You'll probably say no, it's acting in a way conducive to increasing health, well being and happiness. But what reason should one act in a way conducive to these things?
Or is the reason irrelevant?

You admit that you can, to some extent, discern right from wrong, moral from immoral. My post isn't about how we should behave or the reasons why treating someone with compassion is more conducive to happiness than treating someone with reckless endangerment.

Quote:Is Good all one and the same for all four individuals? So that when we say A Good God, do we mean Good in the same way we would of a good police officer? If not than I'm not sure how we're suppose to discern Good as if it where one thing, and one thing only. Good food is matter of taste, Good hygiene, is a matter of cleanliness. And all these individuals correspond to different relationship, one to a child, constituents of a municipality, a patient.

For each case, each persons behavior or actions can increase the health, well being and happiness of another person. When we can recognize those behaviors, we have the ability to discern moral from immoral.


If you can evaluate the actions, then you can determine if that action is moral or immoral.
When we evaluate what a book would look like from an evil, immoral god, it looks a lot like the bible.

I realize you want to derail the discussion away from that central point, but if you're wrong about the moral character of this being referred to as a god, then how much more are you wrong about ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-05-2015, 07:34 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 06:55 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  [quote]You admit that you can, to some extent, discern right from wrong, moral from immoral.

Uhm, no I didn’t. I admitted to being able to discern to some extent an act that increases health, like taking a vitamin, running every morning, or well being and happiness. Not morality.

Unlike you I’m not a utilitarian, or a consequentialist, I subscribe to virtue ethics. Where as you see morality as merely a matter of consequences, I see morality as a matter of character. You look for the consequences of such and such action, where intent and character are not even considered. For me character, intent are the basis of deeming something as good.

So let’s not equate your moral perspective, and basis for moral judgments as one and the same with mine.

There is one problem for you, in your moral worldview there is no such thing as a Good person, there are only good actions. There cannot be a Good God, just a God who does good things, and in this case a God who maximizes well-being.

I'm in a hurry, so this is all I can post for now. So i'll leave you with this.
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20-05-2015, 07:48 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
Yahweh is a malevolent being who is not god. He uses lies and deception to control the masses through fear in the form of a reward and punishment system i.e. heaven and hell. I'm a truth seeking Gnostic Atheist that can prove yahweh is not god and that god doesn't exist through scientifical, biblical, and logical means that promote the use of common sense. And it encourages people to think.
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20-05-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 07:48 PM)pantywetta95 Wrote:  Yahweh is a malevolent being who is not god. He uses lies and deception to control the masses through fear in the form of a reward and punishment system i.e. heaven and hell. I'm a truth seeking Gnostic Atheist that can prove yahweh is not god and that god doesn't exist through scientifical, biblical, and logical means that promote the use of common sense. And it encourages people to think.

You don't need an invite, if you have proof, show it.
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