A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-05-2015, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 07:48 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 06:53 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You can say lots of things about a person's character but you are saying them based on the actions they have taken or not taken. Your mother is kind because she has committed kind actions.

No, her actions are merely an extension of her kindness, the fruit of her kindness. It’s because she is a kind that she does what she does. A persons actions might serve as window for me into her kindness, but it’s not her actions that make her kind, it’s her kindness that leads to her actions, that’s the source of them. If my mother were to become paralyzed, unable to perform any further actions. It’s not as if I would say she used to be a good person, and since she’s paralyzed she is no longer a good person.

Quote:What virtues do you assign to genocide , slavery, torture, mutilation, starvation , the list goes on and on ?

None, because actions don’t have virtues.

Quote:If you are able to tell the difference between a good god and an evil god, then wouldn't it say something about your character if you worshipped one or the other ?

Evil God? An evil being wouldn’t be God, it would be the Devil.

Let’s go over your problem, you imagine that Good and God here are divisible concepts, which is likely because you imagine God as a being, while Good is actions. Where for me Good is a being. It was Plato, who described the Good, as the last to be seen in the realm of the knowable, and only with considerable effort. But once seen, “one must conclude that it is the cause of all that is correct and beautiful in anything, that it produces both light and its source in the visible realm, and that in the intelligible realm it controls and provides truth and understanding”.

If I were reconcile this with what your perhaps trying to suggest, it would be a scenario in which the Devil was in charge, and where the Good is a weakless and powerless protester. It wouldn’t mean that I was worshipping, or in allegiance to the devil, but that my faith was in that weakless and powerless protester, an innocent body overcome by the imperial powers of Rome, tortured and crucified, but never rose again in triumph.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(20-05-2015 02:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 02:04 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  After all, what if you're wrong ?
What would a good God look like?

I think that if you can tell the difference between a good parent and a bad parent, you can tell the difference between a good god and a bad god. Let the God of the Bible be judged as we would judge any father. No more or less harshly.

Abba father, why do you lay your children low? Why is your guiding hand so far away? Where is your help for your beloved children?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
21-05-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 07:45 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Abba father, why do you lay your children low? Why is your guiding hand so far away? Where is your help for your beloved children?

Start talking like that, it's a slippery slope. Tongue

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 07:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 06:53 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You can say lots of things about a person's character but you are saying them based on the actions they have taken or not taken. Your mother is kind because she has committed kind actions.

No, her actions are merely an extension of her kindness, the fruit of her kindness. It’s because she is a kind that she does what she does. A persons actions might serve as window for me into her kindness, but it’s not her actions that make her kind, it’s her kindness that leads to her actions, that’s the source of them. If my mother were to become paralyzed, unable to perform any further actions. It’s not as if I would say she used to be a good person, and since she’s paralyzed she is no longer a good person.

If your mother had fallen into a coma when you were 3 years old and remained that way, you wouldn't have any idea if she was kind or not. You wouldn't know anything about her character or her personality. We are able to label virtues that someone has through the actions they take or don't take.

When a person walks by and sees someone being raped and does absolutely nothing, we can make a judgement about his or her character. We can also make a judgement about the character of the rapist.

If your god is like the kind mother who is paralyzed, that would actually fit well into what we see in the world.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Rahn127's post
21-05-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 09:58 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 07:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, her actions are merely an extension of her kindness, the fruit of her kindness. It’s because she is a kind that she does what she does. A persons actions might serve as window for me into her kindness, but it’s not her actions that make her kind, it’s her kindness that leads to her actions, that’s the source of them. If my mother were to become paralyzed, unable to perform any further actions. It’s not as if I would say she used to be a good person, and since she’s paralyzed she is no longer a good person.

If your mother had fallen into a coma when you were 3 years old and remained that way, you wouldn't have any idea if she was kind or not. You wouldn't know anything about her character or her personality. We are able to label virtues that someone has through the actions they take or don't take.

When a person walks by and sees someone being raped and does absolutely nothing, we can make a judgement about his or her character. We can also make a judgement about the character of the rapist.

If your god is like the kind mother who is paralyzed, that would actually fit well into what we see in the world.

But you can not judge god as you would judge a fellow human, or so theists claim.
Their god is always good just cause he is god. He is good even when he commit genocide*.

*Rainbow and god saying that he won't repeat such punishment apparently make everything all right.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
Is Tomasia shopping presuppositions around again?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 07:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Evil God? An evil being wouldn’t be God, it would be the Devil.

Prove it! With no proof that these figures are not purely imaginary, you are just babbling like someone who ate too many paint chips as a child.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 09:58 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If your mother had fallen into a coma when you were 3 years old and remained that way, you wouldn't have any idea if she was kind or not. You wouldn't know anything about her character or her personality.

I might have, from the stories in which my father, or her siblings might have told me about her. The same way I might know of the goodness and kind nature of my grandparents, who died when I was very young, by the accounts of other family members.

Quote:When a person walks by and sees someone being raped and does absolutely nothing, we can make a judgement about his or her character.

Maybe, maybe he was to scared for his own safety to stop the attack, maybe he despised the victim, and felt she deserved what she got coming.

A God like a person walking by someone being raped, could just be our comic book fantasies come to life, intervening in every crime and theft, foiling all the plots of his Lex Luthors. In fact he can just bring all of our comic book heroes to life, to safe guard humanity. A benevolent police state of superheroes.

But this seems like the cumbersome and inefficient option. When the seemingly most viable alternative here, is to reimagine humanity and our world as something other than what is. No death, no sadness, no tragedy, no loss, no pain, a world of unlimited pleasure, and joy, sucked straight out of the bosom of God. A divine playground of creatures innocent, and with only good intentions. Clean and pristine, and not shabby, or broken, or rough around the edges like our own, where suffering lays at the heart of humanity, in the NT revelation of God himself.

Maybe this world is one which deserves all our contempt, not a world to love, but a world to hate, envious of that pristine world which was never ours.

Quote:If your god is like the kind mother who is paralyzed, that would actually fit well int what we see in the world.

It does. Our world resembles an innocent man on a cross, beaten up and worn, and killed, never to look upon the world again, the kindhearted paralyzed mother, the helpless victim. A Gospel echoing disbelief.

“The Christian faith holds that those who are able to look on the crucifixion and live, to accept that the traumatic truth of human history is a tortured body, might just have a chance of new life – but only by virtue of an unimaginable transformation in our currently dire condition. This is known as the resurrection. Those who don’t see this dreadful image of a mutilated innocent as the truth of history are likely to be devotees of that bright-eyed superstition known as infinite human progress… Or they might be well-intentioned reformers or social democrats, which from a Christian standpoint simply isn’t radical enough.” -Terry Eagleton
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 11:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 09:58 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If your mother had fallen into a coma when you were 3 years old and remained that way, you wouldn't have any idea if she was kind or not. You wouldn't know anything about her character or her personality.

I might have, from the stories in which my father, or her siblings might have told me about her. The same way I might know of the goodness and kind nature of my grandparents, who died when I was very young, by the accounts of other family members.

Quote:When a person walks by and sees someone being raped and does absolutely nothing, we can make a judgement about his or her character.

Maybe, maybe he was to scared for his own safety to stop the attack, maybe he despised the victim, and felt she deserved what she got coming.

A God like a person walking by someone being raped, could just be our comic book fantasies come to life, intervening in every crime and theft, foiling all the plots of his Lex Luthors. In fact he can just bring all of our comic book heroes to life, to safe guard humanity. A benevolent police state of superheroes.

But this seems like the cumbersome and inefficient option. When the seemingly most viable alternative here, is to reimagine humanity and our world as something other than what is. No death, no sadness, no tragedy, no loss, no pain, a world of unlimited pleasure, and joy, sucked straight out of the bosom of God. A divine playground of creatures innocent, and with only good intentions. Clean and pristine, and not shabby, or broken, or rough around the edges like our own, where suffering lays at the heart of humanity, in the NT revelation of God himself.

Maybe this world is one which deserves all our contempt, not a world to love, but a world to hate, envious of that pristine world which was never ours.

Quote:If your god is like the kind mother who is paralyzed, that would actually fit well int what we see in the world.

It does. Our world resembles an innocent man on a cross, beaten up and worn, and killed, never to look upon the world again, the kindhearted paralyzed mother, the helpless victim. A Gospel echoing disbelief.

“The Christian faith holds that those who are able to look on the crucifixion and live, to accept that the traumatic truth of human history is a tortured body, might just have a chance of new life – but only by virtue of an unimaginable transformation in our currently dire condition. This is known as the resurrection. Those who don’t see this dreadful image of a mutilated innocent as the truth of history are likely to be devotees of that bright-eyed superstition known as infinite human progress… Or they might be well-intentioned reformers or social democrats, which from a Christian standpoint simply isn’t radical enough.” -Terry Eagleton

And there it is "Might have a chance of a new life"
That's the carrot that religion offers.

"This life is harsh and often unkind, but if you believe, then you have a chance of a new life......after you die of course. In the mean time, give us your money and your fealty."

No need to examine or question the faith, just do as you're told.
It's only when you truly take a look at the religion do you get a sense of how much it poisons everything it touches.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Rahn127's post
21-05-2015, 12:04 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 11:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It does. Our world resembles an innocent man on a cross, beaten up and worn, and killed, never to look upon the world again, the kindhearted paralyzed mother, the helpless victim. A Gospel echoing disbelief.

“The Christian faith holds that those who are able to look on the crucifixion and live, to accept that the traumatic truth of human history is a tortured body, might just have a chance of new life – but only by virtue of an unimaginable transformation in our currently dire condition. This is known as the resurrection. Those who don’t see this dreadful image of a mutilated innocent as the truth of history are likely to be devotees of that bright-eyed superstition known as infinite human progress… Or they might be well-intentioned reformers or social democrats, which from a Christian standpoint simply isn’t radical enough.” -Terry Eagleton

So jesus was the innocent one (mutilated), not the women, men and children slaughtered by the armies of our biblical god, and all the rest of us are just sinners following the superstition of human progress - give us mature humans a break!

Our world in no way resembles a human being tortured on a couple pieces of would by ancient, ignorant, superstitious, and barbaric people. I could sat that religion resembles the likes of Jim Jones drinking the Koolade for that matter and make as much sense.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: