A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-05-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 11:49 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  And there it is "Might have a chance of a new life"
That's the carrot that religion offers.

"This life is harsh and often unkind, but if you believe, then you have a chance of a new life......after you die of course. In the mean time, give us your money and your fealty."

Not really. The transformative life that Christianity speak about is one able to be participated in the here and now, not one that is acquired after one dies. The neither lo here, or lo there, but within us and among us (Luke 17:21).

That transformative life is embodied in the person of Christ, found in the life of love, but it requires a recognition of it, to participate in.

The theological James Cone in his history of black spirituals, wrote that "black slaves were not passively waiting for the future; they were actively living as if the future were already present in the community." In what Cone called "the transcendent present".

This will remain a stumbling block for you of course, of how a beat up, and oppressed slave, can find a sense of life more profound than your own, in all it's privilege and comfort? All you can say is that whatever occupied that poor and worn heart, was just a lie, and they were blind, and it is you in all your prosperity that can see clearly.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 12:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 11:49 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  And there it is "Might have a chance of a new life"
That's the carrot that religion offers.

"This life is harsh and often unkind, but if you believe, then you have a chance of a new life......after you die of course. In the mean time, give us your money and your fealty."

Not really. The transformative life that Christianity speak about is one able to be participated in the here and now, not one that is acquired after one dies. The neither lo here, or lo there, but within us and among us (Luke 17:21).

That transformative life is embodied in the person of Christ, found in the life of love, but it requires a recognition of it, to participate in.

The theological James Cone in his history of black spirituals, wrote that "black slaves were not passively waiting for the future; they were actively living as if the future were already present in the community." In what Cone called "the transcendent present".

This will remain a stumbling block for you of course, of how a beat up, and oppressed slave, can find a sense of life more profound than your own, in all it's privilege and comfort? All you can say is that whatever occupied that poor and worn heart, was just a lie, and they were blind, and it is you in all your prosperity that can see clearly.

All these excuses for your imaginary friend. There's nothing "He" could do for you to turn your back on "Him" and all because you're terrified of what you really don't know.

I'd give you a pass if you were an idiot, but clearly you're not. Just a coward.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 12:46 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  All these excuses for your imaginary friend. There's nothing "He" could do for you to turn your back on "Him" and all because you're terrified of what you really don't know.

I don't know about that. If he came down, only to get his asked kicked again, there's a good chance I might just turn my back on him. Maybe even get a kick in.

I'm not terrified by what I don't know, I just can't deny what I do know. If I was terrified of not believing, I probably wouldn't be surrounded by folks who don't, lol. If not-believing was just merely a matter of wanting not to, then I would have been an unbeliever a long time ago. I may not want it to be raining outside, or to believe it is raining outside, but since I've already seen the rain outside my window, I can't just go hide in the closest and make it go away, or pretend that it's not.

Quote:I'd give you a pass if you were an idiot, but clearly you're not. Just a coward.

A coward of what? What is this supposed thing that I am supposed to be facing, which I am so afraid of facing? I would like to know what that is. Because clearly you see some fear that I don't.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 01:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 12:46 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  All these excuses for your imaginary friend. There's nothing "He" could do for you to turn your back on "Him" and all because you're terrified of what you really don't know.

I don't know about that. If he came down, only to get his asked kicked again, there's a good chance I might just turn my back on him. Maybe even get a kick in.

I'm not terrified by what I don't know, I just can't deny what I do know. If I was terrified of not believing, I probably wouldn't be surrounded by folks who don't, lol. If not-believing was just merely a matter of wanting not to, then I would have been an unbeliever a long time ago. I may not want it to be raining outside, or to believe it is raining outside, but since I've already seen the rain outside my window, I can't just go hide in the closest and make it go away, or pretend that it's not.

Quote:I'd give you a pass if you were an idiot, but clearly you're not. Just a coward.

A coward of what? What is this supposed thing that I am supposed to be facing, which I am so afraid of facing? I would like to know what that is. Because clearly you see some fear that I don't.

My guess would be mortality. Fear is a powerful motivator, especially fear of death. You rationalize all the bad things and irrationality of God and the Bible because of the promise of escaping death. That's the cowardly part. Your biblical deity is not good, and the stories of magic don't match with the physical reality of the world we live in.

Rational people have no reason to believe other than fear and indoctrination.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
21-05-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 01:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know about that. If he came down, only to get his asked kicked again,

Again? You don't know there was a first time.

Quote:there's a good chance I might just turn my back on him. Maybe even get a kick in.

I'm not terrified by what I don't know, I just can't deny what I do know.

What is it you think you know? Because if it's the existence of any gods or the truth of Christianity, you don't know that. You only believe it and those are not the same thing.

Quote:If I was terrified of not believing, I probably wouldn't be surrounded by folks who don't, lol. If not-believing was just merely a matter of wanting not to, then I would have been an unbeliever a long time ago. I may not want it to be raining outside, or to believe it is raining outside, but since I've already seen the rain outside my window, I can't just go hide in the closest and make it go away, or pretend that it's not.

Again, you don't know in the sense you know it is raining.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 02:12 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 01:33 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  My guess would be mortality. Fear is a powerful motivator, especially fear of death.

I don't think I ever been particularly afraid of death. When I was younger and walking home from the local pizza joint, some kid stuck a gun up at me, and I just shrugged my shoulders and walked away, telling him that I was gonna home to eat my pizza. Or the time a man had taken me down a creek to rob me, where I worried more about losing my nice polo sweatshirt than the idea of dying.

I couldn't say this was because I believed in an afterlife either, because I didn't really believe in all that then. So I don't think death has much of anything to do with it.

Quote:You rationalize all the bad things and irrationality of God and the Bible because of the promise of escaping death. That's the cowardly part. Your biblical deity is not good, and the stories of magic don't match with the physical reality of the world we live in.

I believed in God long before i knew much of anything of the Bible. It was only after reading the Gospels that I recognized the God that I believed in was Christ. So I wouldn't say that I'm dependent on the descriptions of God in the OT, or need to defend or even reconcile it the way some other theists might.

I'm also sure that we likely don't see eye to eye in how we read and understand the OT either, how we would interpret a story, or a passage, and how we understand it in relationship to the Gospels and the New Testament. So going down this road will be a your interpretation vs mine thing, and that never goes well for anybody. I'm inclined to have very little confidence in your interpretations, just like you'll probably see mine as rationalizing away all the bad bits, or whatever.

Quote:Rational people have no reason to believe other than fear and indoctrination.

Yes, if only the world was just this black and white. Assuming there is no God, I'm not sure why some believers just couldn't be merely wrong, rather than being wrong because of fear, or indoctrination.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 01:33 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  My guess would be mortality. Fear is a powerful motivator, especially fear of death.

I don't think I ever been particularly afraid of death. When I was younger and walking home from the local pizza joint, some kid stuck a gun up at me, and I just shrugged my shoulders and walked away, telling him that I was gonna home to eat my pizza. Or the time a man had taken me down a creek to rob me, where I worried more about losing my nice polo sweatshirt than the idea of dying.

I couldn't say this was because I believed in an afterlife either, because I didn't really believe in all that then. So I don't think death has much of anything to do with it.

Quote:You rationalize all the bad things and irrationality of God and the Bible because of the promise of escaping death. That's the cowardly part. Your biblical deity is not good, and the stories of magic don't match with the physical reality of the world we live in.

I believed in God long before i knew much of anything of the Bible. It was only after reading the Gospels that I recognized the God that I believed in was Christ. So I wouldn't say that I'm dependent on the descriptions of God in the OT, or need to defend or even reconcile it the way some other theists might.

I'm also sure that we likely don't see eye to eye in how we read and understand the OT either, how we would interpret a story, or a passage, and how we understand it in relationship to the Gospels and the New Testament. So going down this road will be a your interpretation vs mine thing, and that never goes well for anybody. I'm inclined to have very little confidence in your interpretations, just like you'll probably see mine as rationalizing away all the bad bits, or whatever.

Quote:Rational people have no reason to believe other than fear and indoctrination.

Yes, if only the world was just this black and white. Assuming there is no God, I'm not sure why some believers just couldn't be merely wrong, rather than being wrong because of fear, or indoctrination.

I'm not "seeing" it that way. It's what you're doing. Period. Murdering innocent people is wrong. Raping women is wrong. Slavery is wrong. You're not "interpreting", you are rationalizing the bad things your God did, ordered or allowed because they don't fit with the current Christian agenda of "God is love".

You rationalize these things away because you know they're wrong. That's why you don't get a pass, because you know better but defend it anyway. So are you an idiot, a coward or just brainwashed? Or is it more like cowardly brainwashed idiot?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
21-05-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  What is it you think you know? Because if it's the existence of any gods or the truth of Christianity, you don't know that. You only believe it and those are not the same thing…….Again, you don't know in the sense you know it is raining.

Of course, I don’t mean that when I look out my window I see Jesus peeking through it, waving his hippy hands at me, in the way I look out my window and see that it’s raining. I’m saying something about my confidence in something that I hold as true, and not particularly about the basis, or reasons for that confidence.

I’m just sort of saying that I’m sort of stuck being a believer, I don’t have much of a choice, or a means not to be. From your perspective this would likely translate to me being so far down the rabbit hole, that there’s no escaping it.

I’m also not sure about the distinction between believing and knowing, where one ends and the other starts. How much confidence can a man have before he can say he knows, rather than believes? Do you know your wife has never cheated on you, or do you believe your wife has never cheated on you? Do you know your mother loves you, or do you just believe your mother loves you?

If knowing just amounts to being absolutely certain that you’re right, with no room for the possibility of being wrong. Than I guess you can say I don’t know, I just believe (rather than 1 on the Dawkins Scale, I would say a 2, as one who doesn’t know for certain, but strongly believes).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I believed in God long before i knew much of anything of the Bible. It was only after reading the Gospels that I recognized the God that I believed in was Christ.

I'm inclined to have very little confidence in your interpretations, just like you'll probably see mine as rationalizing away all the bad bits, or whatever.

Sooooo...confirmation bias much there Tommy boy? The story of jesus did not lead you to believe, but he was just one character that fit your imaginary concept vs all the other divine dudes.

What you don't get is that you need the various interpretations to make the whole thing acceptable and make you feel special. We just see clearly what scriptures say, and are not fogged up by spiritual glasses of "interpretation".

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 02:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  What is it you think you know? Because if it's the existence of any gods or the truth of Christianity, you don't know that. You only believe it and those are not the same thing…….Again, you don't know in the sense you know it is raining.

Of course, I don’t mean that when I look out my window I see Jesus peeking through it, waving his hippy hands at me, in the way I look out my window and see that it’s raining. I’m saying something about my confidence in something that I hold as true, and not particularly about the basis, or reasons for that confidence.

I’m just sort of saying that I’m sort of stuck being a believer, I don’t have much of a choice, or a means not to be. From your perspective this would likely translate to me being so far down the rabbit hole, that there’s no escaping it.

I’m also not sure about the distinction between believing and knowing, where one ends and the other starts. How much confidence can a man have before he can say he knows, rather than believes? Do you know your wife has never cheated on you, or do you believe your wife has never cheated on you? Do you know your mother loves you, or do you just believe your mother loves you?

If knowing just amounts to being absolutely certain that you’re right, with no room for the possibility of being wrong. Than I guess you can say I don’t know, I just believe (rather than 1 on the Dawkins Scale, I would say a 2, as one who doesn’t know for certain, but strongly believes).

Knowing requires evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: