A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
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21-05-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
Are we going to have to get inductiony in here and talk about Lawful or lawless claims, or talk about Grue and bleen to make things clear... or is that just pointless and going to be met with boxed in assumptions that lead to no understanding? I'm guess it'll be a waste of time to even bother with that in this 1 situation.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-05-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:35 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Sooooo...confirmation bias much there Tommy boy? The story of jesus did not lead you to believe, but he was just one character that fit your imaginary concept vs all the other divine dudes.

vs all other divine dudes that couldn't fit my "imaginary" concept?

Quote: We just see clearly what scriptures say, and are not fogged up by spiritual glasses of "interpretation".

Do you? While there are some very good atheists interpreters of scripture, like Nietzsche, Slavoj Zizek, Ernst Bloch, etc.., I don't think your run of the mill forum atheists is very good. Primarily because these individuals are interested in questions of historical facts, and scientific accuracy, rather than read the bible for what it primarily is, a series of religious stories. I'm doubtful that if I asked you what a particular parable meant, or what the story of the garden of eden was about, that I'd get a very insightful answer. This has less to do with you being an atheists of course, and more to do with your own particular interest, which are not all that interested in these sorts of questions anyways.

I don't view the bible as some sort infallible work, but an entirely human endeavor, with all the flaws of being a human work. For the most part, I'd say I read the bible a way an unbeliever might, or the same way that I read other stories. In fact there's variety of atheists whose readings of the bible I'd agree with, like the aforementioned ones.
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21-05-2015, 04:37 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
I would suggest that the majority of Christians take a literalist approach or simply use their church as a place to address perceived social injustices.
Some look to metaphor to find some sanity midst all those thousand of jig saw puzzle words.
As for a 'perfect' GodBowing, if we see life in a state of flux, as I tend to do, I see 'perfect' as an evolving never to be reached state to be ever addressed by our existential experience. Vannini wrote of this post Empedocles considerations, if I remember correctly.
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21-05-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
Because we live in a world where there are no gods, it's hard to imagine what it would be like living with one.

But if you take a look at North Korea, you get an idea of what that life would be like.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-05-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:30 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I'm not "seeing" it that way. It's what you're doing. Period. Murdering innocent people is wrong. Raping women is wrong. Slavery is wrong. You're not "interpreting", you are rationalizing the bad things your God did, ordered or allowed because they don't fit with the current Christian agenda of "God is love".

When I say the bible is entirely human text, it means rather than God ordering anyone to do anything, it's people believing god ordered them to do this or that.

Regardless, I don't judge much of any of the actions of early hebrews as immoral, or wrong, in fact I don't even view much of Mohammad's actions as immoral or wrong. As if I can sit here and wag my privileged fingers at them, since I lack their various concerns, nor lived in their harsh times. Sometimes it's not a question of whats right or wrong, sometimes it just a question of living or dying.

Quote:You rationalize these things away because you know they're wrong.

lol, no I don't. My judgement would be the same regardless of if the people where christians or jews, or even atheists.
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22-05-2015, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2015 02:21 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(22-05-2015 09:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 02:30 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I'm not "seeing" it that way. It's what you're doing. Period. Murdering innocent people is wrong. Raping women is wrong. Slavery is wrong. You're not "interpreting", you are rationalizing the bad things your God did, ordered or allowed because they don't fit with the current Christian agenda of "God is love".

When I say the bible is entirely human text, it means rather than God ordering anyone to do anything, it's people believing god ordered them to do this or that.

Regardless, I don't judge much of any of the actions of early hebrews as immoral, or wrong, in fact I don't even view much of Mohammad's actions as immoral or wrong. As if I can sit here and wag my privileged fingers at them, since I lack their various concerns, nor lived in their harsh times. Sometimes it's not a question of whats right or wrong, sometimes it just a question of living or dying.

Quote:You rationalize these things away because you know they're wrong.

lol, no I don't. My judgement would be the same regardless of if the people where christians or jews, or even atheists.

Now to me, saying "sometimes its just a question of living or dying." Is rationalizing.

I'm curious, what would you call that? If it's not, what would be an example of Rationalizing?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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22-05-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(22-05-2015 09:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  When I say the bible is entirely human text, it means rather than God ordering anyone to do anything, it's people believing god ordered them to do this or that.

So if the bible is written by humans, ignorant of whether any gods actually exist and intervene in this world, why do you feel that, as you said, "I can't help but believe"?

You ether trust the scriptures as proof (as that is the only documentation of god's accounts), or base everything on a warm and wishful fuzzy kind of feeling - no?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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22-05-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm also sure that we likely don't see eye to eye in how we read and understand the OT either, how we would interpret a story, or a passage, and how we understand it in relationship to the Gospels and the New Testament. So going down this road will be a your interpretation vs mine thing, and that never goes well for anybody. I'm inclined to have very little confidence in your interpretations, just like you'll probably see mine as rationalizing away all the bad bits, or whatever.

The evils listed in the Pentateuch do not arise from uncharitable readings. They arise from the words themselves. The Noachic flood represented the killing of all but seven humans. Jericho, Bashan, Heshbon, the Amalekites are all gencides which you'd rightly call evil if men ordered them; but because god ordered them, you instead attempt to argue that nonbelievers are simply not reading the book right.

Nonsense. The language is plain. Rather than call a spade a spade, you'd rather redefine "good". Just one more example of Christianity's corrosive influence on morality.
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22-05-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(21-05-2015 02:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’m also not sure about the distinction between believing and knowing, where one ends and the other starts. How much confidence can a man have before he can say he knows, rather than believes? Do you know your wife has never cheated on you, or do you believe your wife has never cheated on you? Do you know your mother loves you, or do you just believe your mother loves you?

This is English, not rocket science. The deployment of semantics in an argument is a sure sign that the argument itself is vapid.
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22-05-2015, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2015 10:37 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: A different take on - "What if you're wrong"
(22-05-2015 09:50 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So if the bible is written by humans, ignorant of whether any gods actually exist and intervene in this world

The Hebrews didn't see themselves as ignorant of God's existent, they saw themselves as a community wrestling with the question of God, it's the very meaning of Israel. They see themselves as characters in a story, whose meaning they are only able to have glimpses of. Their conceptions of God evolve through out their history, but this evolution is rooted and built on these early intuitions of their communities, the early perception of the tribal deity of the jews, becomes the God of all humanity. To read the bible, is seeing a seed grow and blossom overtime.

Quote:why do you feel that, as you said, "I can't help but believe"?

To put it simply I don't know how not to believe.

Quote:You ether trust the scriptures as proof (as that is the only documentation of god's accounts), or base everything on a warm and wishful fuzzy kind of feeling - no?

No, as I said previously I believed in God before I ever actually read the Bible. And it's not the bible that sustains my belief in God, it's life that sustains it: these everyday observations and perceptions, that tune that always plays, that story that continually repeats itself. When people talk of good and evil; when the man who does wrong finds himself suffering from guilt; the one who is kind, living life abundantly; the sense that life that is best lived is not to master but to serve; to commit, to love, and be loyal to. That wholeness is forever out of reach of the oppressor, but so close to the oppressed. There is a profoundness of life here, that everyone sees but never sees. That's what sustains my belief.
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