A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
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15-08-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
(15-08-2016 02:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 02:34 PM)KerimF Wrote:  It is sad that most people have to repeat their great words to hide their inability to discuss the facts I presented so far. Sorry, if you didn't have the time to read all my posts.

As an exercise, here are two facts Wink

[1]
During 9/11/2001 till year 2010, Al-Qaeda was able to build a huge international terrorist army behind the back of all CIA agents and their fellows of the free world intelligences (besides the Russian ones, of course).
This means one of the two.
Al-Qaeda got supernatural aids from Heaven; weapons and funds (besides training on how to create a state as ISIS).
Or, all our dear agents got ill and lost their skills Sad

[2]
After year 2010, Al-Qaeda attacked and terrorized millions of people in the Arab World and destroyed their countries.
This means one of the two.
Al-Qaeda, claimed by the White House being anti-America, was fooled that Arabs are Americans.
Or, Al-Qaeda was and still is the military right hand of the US system (also used as a cover up on 9/11/2001... a trick known in many Hollywood movies and series to cover up crimes committed by powerful/rich families/groups).

But I assume you are more intelligent than I and, therefore, you can give me a third possibility for each of the two facts above. Naturally, an isolated person may have no idea about.

Kerim

Curious where you come to form such false dichotomies as options. When in reality there are dozens of possibilities and failures of ignorance as possible attributions.

The same goes to your whole, can't be atheist/american thing with this meaning you are using for "nationalism" is twisted. Being of a nationality to what ever definition has included you must respect, agree with, or support the ideals of the nation? It's more of a thrown upon oneself title of happenstance. You happen to be born or be living in x spot. What you think about that doesn't change those scenarios. While there is no such thing as a christian baby/muslim baby/buddhist baby... there is a chinese, american, or Afghani baby; that being based on the location of designated regional birth and heritage. Not that any of it means anything.

One could denounce any nationality but to not do so doesn't equate as support or acceptance of notions the nation supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.

You say it.
A person may support and/or accept notions the nation (actually its earthly ruling system via its representatives) supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.
A theist may also support and/or accept notions his community (actually the representatives of a/his heavenly ruling god) supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.

But perhaps you have an example of a precept/ideal which could be against the ones of a ruling system and is supported by a person living in the nation of this system. Thank you.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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15-08-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
Hello KerimF.

In regards to one part of your above response. I live in a secular, democratic country with no 'Ruling system'. (Other than that of 'Common law').


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15-08-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
(15-08-2016 03:20 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 02:45 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Curious where you come to form such false dichotomies as options. When in reality there are dozens of possibilities and failures of ignorance as possible attributions.

The same goes to your whole, can't be atheist/american thing with this meaning you are using for "nationalism" is twisted. Being of a nationality to what ever definition has included you must respect, agree with, or support the ideals of the nation? It's more of a thrown upon oneself title of happenstance. You happen to be born or be living in x spot. What you think about that doesn't change those scenarios. While there is no such thing as a christian baby/muslim baby/buddhist baby... there is a chinese, american, or Afghani baby; that being based on the location of designated regional birth and heritage. Not that any of it means anything.

One could denounce any nationality but to not do so doesn't equate as support or acceptance of notions the nation supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.

You say it.
A person may support and/or accept notions the nation (actually its earthly ruling system via its representatives) supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.
A theist may also support and/or accept notions his community (actually the representatives of a/his heavenly ruling god) supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.

But perhaps you have an example of a precept/ideal which could be against the ones of a ruling system and is supported by a person living in the nation of this system. Thank you.

Kerim

You mean like thousands of communists who wanted societal ideal change or the thousands of theocratic desiring citizens that live in and are nationally US Americans but don't agree much with the supposed American ideals of human democracy, individualism, or that notion of freedom.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-08-2016, 07:25 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
(15-08-2016 03:28 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello KerimF.

In regards to one part of your above response. I live in a secular, democratic country with no 'Ruling system'. (Other than that of 'Common law').


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I liked the expression "Common law". Thumbsup

I wonder where "Special law" may exist in the world. Consider

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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15-08-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
(15-08-2016 03:32 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-08-2016 03:20 PM)KerimF Wrote:  You say it.
A person may support and/or accept notions the nation (actually its earthly ruling system via its representatives) supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.
A theist may also support and/or accept notions his community (actually the representatives of a/his heavenly ruling god) supposedly has as it's precepts and ideals.

But perhaps you have an example of a precept/ideal which could be against the ones of a ruling system and is supported by a person living in the nation of this system. Thank you.

Kerim

You mean like thousands of communists who wanted societal ideal change or the thousands of theocratic desiring citizens that live in and are nationally US Americans but don't agree much with the supposed American ideals of human democracy, individualism, or that notion of freedom.

But you agree with me that the notions of democracy, individualism and freedom are supported (actually preached) by the representatives of the ruling system in USA.

By these great notions, people can be controlled with ease (as in the case of using religious notions).

[1] By democracy, the people only (being the voters) get the blame in politics, not their men on power (unless it is about sex Wink ).
[2] By individualism, every man has a price.
[3] By freedom, people can do whatever they like as long they let their men on top live in peace. They can even insult them. This reminds me the universal rule, applied everywhere on earth, that says something like: "Let the dogs bark as long they don't/cannot bite".

After all, the men on top are geniuses in their field (politics), as their religious counterparts are. But they also have great actors (known as politicians) to play the innocent idiots before the people, anytime necessary.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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15-08-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
At work.

Untill you, KerimF, are less vague/nebulous about these "Men in power"/"Men of power" we're left with little more than pale conspiracy ideas of little merit.
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16-08-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
(15-08-2016 09:25 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Untill you, KerimF, are less vague/nebulous about these "Men in power"/"Men of power" we're left with little more than pale conspiracy ideas of little merit.

I am sorry.
After the free democratic US System (that has Saudi Arabia of Al-Sharia among its best allies) has attacked also Syria for 5 years so far using Al-Qaeda, the broken song: "Al-Qaeda attacked America on 9/11/2001" doesn't convince anymore billions in the world (excluding the faithful followers of the free democratic US System of course).

G. Bush was instructed to tell his US troops a proven fairy tale (on TV) about Iraq for many years. Then, the US System attacked Iraq in year 2003 in the name of the American idols (freedom and democracy). Since then, the Iraqi people had to live the American 9/11 terror daily... till our days.

Again, and when the CIA kids of Al-Qaeda became adults in year 2010, Obama was instructed to announce the start of the "Arab Spring" (beginning from Tunisia, if you remember well). In this "Spring", the US System discovered one evil superman after another in every country that should follow the fate of Iraq and, therefore, live daily the American 9/11 terror as well.

Now, after the long resistance of Syria, it became clear, as sunlight is, that Al-Qaeda flag is actually an American flag chosen by the CIA for any terrorist groups that are ready to serve the global agenda (in the "War on Terror" series) of the American Elite who play before us the saviours of the world. Please don't tell me you have no idea yet about these great saviours!

Anyway, don't you see that you have no courage to give me even one fact (or evidence, if you like) that contradicts any of the facts about the 9/11 attacks I presented already.

But I understand that any faithful follower of the US System should defend its fairy tales as, for example, a theist defends the fairy tale of Adam and Eve. I guess, in this situation, the best defence is to hide behind the expression "conspiracy theory" as many friends here do; and I respect their loyalty.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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16-08-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
Okay.. time to type and a keyboard to do it with. Big Grin

(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  I am sorry.
After the free democratic US System (that has Saudi Arabia of Al-Sharia among its best allies)...


Okay... America is actually a 'Republic'. There's a subtle difference between American democracy and, say, British democracy. The way voting is conducted, counted. How the governing body's of either system work and interact etc. That one has a "Bill of rights" etc to name a few.

So, right off the bat you've really got to have a basic understanding of those differences before you start slapping paint about with your too wide brush.

(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  ... Has attacked also Syria for 5 years so far using Al-Qaeda, the broken song: "Al-Qaeda attacked America on 9/11/2001" doesn't convince anymore billions in the world (excluding the faithful followers of the free democratic US System of course).

I am actually completely nonplussed about the whole affair, I am sad to admit. Sad

(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  ... G. Bush

Bush senior? Or Bush junior? Both have been in politics in the oval office. Both men's terms involved actions in the Middle East.

(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  ... Was instructed to tell his US troops a proven fairy tale (on TV) about Iraq for many years. Then, the US System attacked Iraq in year 2003 in the name of the American idols (freedom and democracy). Since then, the Iraqi people had to live the American 9/11 terror daily... till our days.

Again, and when the CIA kids of Al-Qaeda became adults in year 2010, Obama was instructed to announce the start of the "Arab Spring" (beginning from Tunisia, if you remember well). In this "Spring", the US System discovered one evil superman after another in every country that should follow the fate of Iraq and, therefore, live daily the American 9/11 terror as well.

Now, after the long resistance of Syria, it became clear, as sunlight is, that Al-Qaeda flag is actually an American flag chosen by the CIA for any terrorist groups that are ready to serve the global agenda (in the "War on Terror" series) of the American Elite who play before us the saviors of the world. Please don't tell me you have no idea yet about these great saviors!

Um.. a strange rambling which interweaves a whole lot of things.

Sadly, as I've repeatedly asked you before. Since English is not your first language and you're not that strong with it... I ask again that you try and state one idea/topic. Singly and in as simple words as you can so that we readers can first be sure we understand your point and then can properly reply.

(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Anyway, don't you see that you have no courage to give me even one fact (or evidence, if you like) that contradicts any of the facts about the 9/11 attacks I presented already.

*Sigh No No, that is not how it works KermiF.

You are the one making all the claims here.

Hence, you are the one who is in the position to present facts. Preferably facts and not opinion.

Now, there's nothing wrong with opinions... it's just that they aren't enough to actually go on or work with. I have lots of opinions... some of which might actually match reality. Blush

When you present your facts, people then reply and point out whether what you're presenting matches reality.

So you can discard facts which are wrong and keep the facts which are true.

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(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  ... But I understand that any faithful follower of the US System should defend its fairy tales as,

So.. this reads both as a slur and an insult.

As I've stated before. I am not an American. Many people who have replied to yourself are not Americans. You are slathering every one with your way too wide brush of vitriol and slander. Please stop doing so.

(16-08-2016 12:00 PM)KerimF Wrote:  .... For example, a theist defends the fairy tale of Adam and Eve. I guess, in this situation, the best defense is to hide behind the expression "conspiracy theory" as many friends here do; and I respect their loyalty.

I am not hiding behind anything.

All you are posting is your opinion on how the world at large works and those people who actually live in the countries about which you're casting wide your aspersions are giving you back honest answers and corrections about the myths you've picked up from... well.. where ever.. Youtube mostly by the looks of it.

I wish you well and hope you take some of my advice to heart.

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16-08-2016, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2016 12:47 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
Kerim,

You're talking to a group of people who are largely, though not entirely, made up of people who are well-aware of the sins of the USA, and are quick to point them out (so much so that we draw snide comments from our "more patriotic" members). If there was a conspiracy of the type you describe, we'd be happy to acknowledge it.

Our country has done, and is doing, many dastardly things. We have engaged in things I consider war crimes, and I think the people who were in charge should be put on trial in the Hague for it. I personally think the people behind programs like COINTELPRO, the "War on Drugs", and Operation Charly (among many other actions in South and Central America) should also be incarcerated for the rest of their lives for crimes against humanity.

Our country and its Capitalist (super-wealthy) owners, so to speak, who actually influence our congress more than the voters do in most cases, has started numerous wars in the name of corporate profits-- I'm convinced that the entire Iraq debacle was on that basis, and I think Syria is part of that overall plan (according to our General Wes Clark, whose opinion I value; see video below) to maintain our Military Industrial Complex in the absence of a major threat from the Soviet Union, because they anticipate competition with China in the next few decades and want our military kept as strong as it is today. We need threats, and we need wars, in order to accomplish that goal. [Edit to Add: It also has the effect of making our oil companies, arms manufacturers, and infrastructure construction companies unimaginable amounts of money. This is not a conspiracy but basic human self-interest at work.]





All of that said, I don't think your contentions are supported. I would jump to agree with you, if I could. I believe that love of my country means admitting when we do wrong things, and opposing them with my voice and my vote.

So please, stop saying that we're just in denial, or naive. We know the score. We just think you've added so many other elements that your hypothesis is fatally flawed. Grow up and acknowledge that we're as bright and well-educated as you are, and we simply do not accept your premise or your conclusions.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-08-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: A dilemma: How an American could be a real atheist?
Peebothuhul, that was an outstanding reply. Giving extra Likes, here. Big Grin

You should really get behind a keyboard more often. (I don't even try to participate on this forum via my smartphone!)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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