A distinction without a difference?
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25-08-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
It should be...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Atheo-Gnostic
2: justified belief (God does not exist) = Athe-ist
1: no belief (either proposition) = Agnostic
2: justified belief (God exists) = The-ist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Theo-Gnostic

Because this is convoluted nonsense...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Gnostic Strong A-theist
2: true belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic Strong A-theist
1: no belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic __________ (There is no label for lacking belief to the "Strong A-theist" proposition.)
1: no belief (God exists) = Agnostic Weak A-theist
2: true belief (God exists) = Agnostic Theist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Gnostic Theist

"A-theist", technically, does not define a person. Personhood is in the -ist. An a-theist is "not a god believer". A rock is a-theist. Likewise, a-theism is not a philosophy. An "agnostic a-theist" is someone (-ic) who doesn't know they are "not a god believer" and a "gnostic a-theist" is someone who knows they are "not a god believer". The terms make no logical sense, for discussing people with beliefs and philosophies.
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25-08-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 02:25 PM)3DJ Wrote:  It should be...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Atheo-Gnostic
2: justified belief (God does not exist) = Athe-ist
1: no belief (either proposition) = Agnostic
2: justified belief (God exists) = The-ist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Theo-Gnostic

Because this is convoluted nonsense...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Gnostic Strong A-theist
2: true belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic Strong A-theist
1: no belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic __________ (There is no label for lacking belief to the "Strong A-theist" proposition.)
1: no belief (God exists) = Agnostic Weak A-theist
2: true belief (God exists) = Agnostic Theist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Gnostic Theist

"A-theist", technically, does not define a person. Personhood is in the -ist. An a-theist is "not a god believer". A rock is a-theist. Likewise, a-theism is not a philosophy. An "agnostic a-theist" is someone (-ic) who doesn't know they are "not a god believer" and a "gnostic a-theist" is someone who knows they are "not a god believer". The terms make no logical sense, for discussing people with beliefs and philosophies.

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25-08-2014, 10:37 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 09:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 02:25 PM)3DJ Wrote:  It should be...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Atheo-Gnostic
2: justified belief (God does not exist) = Athe-ist
1: no belief (either proposition) = Agnostic
2: justified belief (God exists) = The-ist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Theo-Gnostic

Because this is convoluted nonsense...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Gnostic Strong A-theist
2: true belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic Strong A-theist
1: no belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic __________ (There is no label for lacking belief to the "Strong A-theist" proposition.)
1: no belief (God exists) = Agnostic Weak A-theist
2: true belief (God exists) = Agnostic Theist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Gnostic Theist

"A-theist", technically, does not define a person. Personhood is in the -ist. An a-theist is "not a god believer". A rock is a-theist. Likewise, a-theism is not a philosophy. An "agnostic a-theist" is someone (-ic) who doesn't know they are "not a god believer" and a "gnostic a-theist" is someone who knows they are "not a god believer". The terms make no logical sense, for discussing people with beliefs and philosophies.

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It's all still meaningless with a coherent definition of "God".

So there's that.

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25-08-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 10:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 09:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  [Image: nb2mO.jpg]

Drinking Beverage

It's all still meaningless with a coherent definition of "God".

So there's that.

I don't get what the major hangup is.

There are two simple, but distinct, questions.


Are you convinced that a god or gods exist?
Yes? - Theist
No? - Athiest

Do you claim to know or that knowledge is possible in regards to god or gods?
Yes? - Gnostic
No? - Agnostic


It's two simple yes/no questions. Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Consider

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25-08-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 10:43 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Are you convinced that a god or gods exist?
Yes? - Theist
No? - Athiest

Do you claim to know or that knowledge is possible in regards to god or gods?
Yes? - Gnostic
No? - Agnostic

... but I still can't give a good answer without the questioner specifying what is meant by "god".

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25-08-2014, 11:19 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 11:04 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 10:43 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Are you convinced that a god or gods exist?
Yes? - Theist
No? - Athiest

Do you claim to know or that knowledge is possible in regards to god or gods?
Yes? - Gnostic
No? - Agnostic

... but I still can't give a good answer without the questioner specifying what is meant by "god".

Well, are you convinced that their poorly defined divine concept exists?
No? - Atheist


Tongue

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26-08-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 11:19 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 11:04 PM)cjlr Wrote:  ... but I still can't give a good answer without the questioner specifying what is meant by "god".

Well, are you convinced that their poorly defined divine concept exists?
No? - Atheist


Tongue

You and I both know that the question as generally put by theists is a disingenuous trollercoaster. It's very important to get clear meanings laid out before answering.

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27-08-2014, 12:53 AM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(26-08-2014 07:47 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 11:19 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Well, are you convinced that their poorly defined divine concept exists?
No? - Atheist


Tongue

You and I both know that the question as generally put by theists is a disingenuous trollercoaster. It's very important to get clear meanings laid out before answering.

But of course; the more specific you make the definition, the more restrictive their god concept becomes. They prefer undefined nebulous concepts that makes it harder to nail them down and point out the flaws.

But if they fail to give a concrete definition of what they believe in, they cannot expect an honest evaluation of their proposition; and thus we still default (if we're being good skeptics) to being unconvinced of the validity of their proposition. In regards to god concepts, that makes you an atheist.


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28-08-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(25-08-2014 09:52 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 02:25 PM)3DJ Wrote:  It should be...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Atheo-Gnostic
2: justified belief (God does not exist) = Athe-ist
1: no belief (either proposition) = Agnostic
2: justified belief (God exists) = The-ist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Theo-Gnostic

Because this is convoluted nonsense...

3: justified true belief (God does not exist) = Gnostic Strong A-theist
2: true belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic Strong A-theist
1: no belief (God does not exist) = Agnostic __________ (There is no label for lacking belief to the "Strong A-theist" proposition.)
1: no belief (God exists) = Agnostic Weak A-theist
2: true belief (God exists) = Agnostic Theist
3: justified true belief (God exists) = Gnostic Theist

"A-theist", technically, does not define a person. Personhood is in the -ist. An a-theist is "not a god believer". A rock is a-theist. Likewise, a-theism is not a philosophy. An "agnostic a-theist" is someone (-ic) who doesn't know they are "not a god believer" and a "gnostic a-theist" is someone who knows they are "not a god believer". The terms make no logical sense, for discussing people with beliefs and philosophies.

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What if I do not believe in gods but I think there is ...Maybe proof instead of a yes or a no lol. We have no idea or could make a claim whether or not there is any real proof or not. Currently there is Zero evidence for the existence there for of. But there..."could" be somewhere out there for either one way or the other, so we would have no idea whether one way or another anyway?

Complete impartial Atheist?


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28-08-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: A distinction without a difference?
(27-08-2014 12:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 07:47 AM)cjlr Wrote:  You and I both know that the question as generally put by theists is a disingenuous trollercoaster. It's very important to get clear meanings laid out before answering.

But of course; the more specific you make the definition, the more restrictive their god concept becomes. They prefer undefined nebulous concepts that makes it harder to nail them down and point out the flaws.

But if they fail to give a concrete definition of what they believe in, they cannot expect an honest evaluation of their proposition; and thus we still default (if we're being good skeptics) to being unconvinced of the validity of their proposition. In regards to god concepts, that makes you an atheist.


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^Also, you're welcome! Tongue

I think the inability to define god is directly related to the lack of reality of the concept in the first place. The reason why everyone has a different definition of god is because it's a concept only in the imagination of the individual.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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