A dumbass abroad
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28-05-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(25-05-2017 04:05 PM)neurotibotical Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 03:12 PM)mordant Wrote:  Depends on your definition of "ugly American" but there were some ugly Americans in the Clinton camp too. Just a different kind of ugly -- elitist vs redneck, if you will.

Have we really fallen so far that "sanity" and "facts" are synonymous with "elitism"?
Not at all. That wasn't my contention.

Not all liberals are elitists.

The problem with the elites isn't a problem with facts, but with attitude and application.
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28-05-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(25-05-2017 05:48 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 03:12 PM)mordant Wrote:  Depends on your definition of "ugly American" but there were some ugly Americans in the Clinton camp too. Just a different kind of ugly -- elitist vs redneck, if you will.

"Ugly American: an American who behaves offensively when abroad."

Who in the Clinton camp behaved offensively when abroad?
Trump has lowered our baseline to the point that we think boorishness is the only thing that defines the arrogance of the ugly American. But it is also the arrogance of "I know best" foreign policy that, in Clinton's case, would have been a hard sell to the American public, let alone to our allies.

Elitism itself, of course, is ugly to people who encounter it. I think it was ugly the way Clinton partisans tried to disenfranchise Sanders during the primaries, for example. It is ugly the way the liberal elites show zero evidence of having learned any coherent lessons from their loss to Trump. All of this is well-documented.
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28-05-2017, 05:21 PM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(28-05-2017 03:20 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 05:48 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  "Ugly American: an American who behaves offensively when abroad."

Who in the Clinton camp behaved offensively when abroad?
Trump has lowered our baseline to the point that we think boorishness is the only thing that defines the arrogance of the ugly American. But it is also the arrogance of "I know best" foreign policy that, in Clinton's case, would have been a hard sell to the American public, let alone to our allies.

Elitism itself, of course, is ugly to people who encounter it. I think it was ugly the way Clinton partisans tried to disenfranchise Sanders during the primaries, for example. It is ugly the way the liberal elites show zero evidence of having learned any coherent lessons from their loss to Trump. All of this is well-documented.

Agree that elitism is problematic. Unfortunately, dumbassism is even more so.

IMO Clinton's brand of elitism plays better in Europe, and while Europe's model for social management isn't ideal, IMO it's the best humans have come up with so far.

However, it seems clear that puppet has once more burned his bridges where he doesn't understand the social dynamic

'Fuck him, I hope he's impeached or imprisoned soon.
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29-05-2017, 05:11 AM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(28-05-2017 02:08 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 01:59 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The #1 foreign affairs goal for the USSR and later Russia post WWII was the desolation of the American-German Alliance Trump managed to do this on his first international trip. If he is not an active Russian agent he is an unwitting one and functionally there is no difference.

The German American alliance, from a European perspective, never was as important as the German French alliance. After centuries of waging war against each other.

The self proclaimed special relationshipt between America and the UK certainly was more important in the eyes of the Russian. Which also is mirrored in their efforts ti subverse the british intelligence services. Successfully so.

What Merkel said today was a long time in coming. The Trump trip only was the last drop in the barrel. I have to say, if I was a German citizen, I would vote Merkel, although I haven't voted conservative for the last 30 years. But Merkel is one of the select few politicians that stayed human and weigh their humanitarian values against the possible consequences of their decisions.

Who would have thought? When she was taking office, back in 2005, I was opposed to her. Her style of running the government has convinced me otherwise.

Yeah, about the same is happening and happened to me. I am by no means a conservative christian, nor even from north-east Germany (but from south-west) like Merkel. At first i disliked her, i still dont "like" her much. But i became to respect her in certain ways, and there must be something to a politician if he/she is able to stay in power for so long, especially during times of turmoil. She has survived countless attempts (particularly from the left, her basemet is full of their corpses) even from within her own party (Bavaria, wink, wink) and it seems very clear that she is going to win in September too, giving her a couple of more years to reign. I appreciated that she had the necessary toughness, to defend her humanitarian decision during the syrian refugee crisis as much as i respect her way in which she deals with various EU issues (Uk, Greece, etc).

As far as the US-Ger alliance goes. I think it is still important, even to Germans, because they see the danger of the authoritarian Putin regime, but by far not as much as it was during the cold war. During the cold war it was a matter of live and die (stay with the west or get sucked up in the gravitational pull of the soviet system). However there are many voices, particularly younger people (of course, who havent lived during the cold war) who wouldnt mind looking for a new "best friend" east of Brest-Litovsk instead of looking across the atlantic. Everybody who knows history, knows that there were long times of deep relationships between Germany and Russia. The more the US acts like an asshole, bully or idtiot, the more arguments you give to those who want to look east for partnership.

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29-05-2017, 06:44 AM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(29-05-2017 05:11 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  The more the US acts like an asshole, bully or idtiot, the more arguments you give to those who want to look east for partnership.

And that may be the plan by Russia all along....

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29-05-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: A dumbass abroad
Today was a memorable day for me, as far as Trump and our media is concerned. I opened a mainstream daily, which usually doesn't take positions on the political spectrum. I started to read the leadin column, which was about Trump's first visit and was instantly amazed. Even in the first paragraph, right after the authour proclaimed that a spade should be called a spade, there were the words idiot, incompetent and sociopath. To understand my amazement over what I read, that's usually not how papers in Western Europe operate. You hardly find this choice of words in connection to a politician, let alone an American president.

The times they are a changin as Dylan said. There's a never before seen divide between the continents with the rise of that character.

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29-05-2017, 11:34 AM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(29-05-2017 06:44 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 05:11 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  The more the US acts like an asshole, bully or idtiot, the more arguments you give to those who want to look east for partnership.

And that may be the plan by Russia all along....

I wouldnt underestimate the competence Putin has regarding Germany, its past and present. He was married to a german teacher for 30 years, was in Germany itself from 1985-89, is fluent in German (you arent fluent in a foreign language without having dived into this countries culture to some extend) and his two daughters went to a german school in St. Petersburg. I think we can establish that this guy has some genuine interest in Germany.

Lets have a look at past and current US presidents (sans Obama): Clinton, the Bushs, Trump? Trumps granddad is from Kallstadt, thats about it. I doubt the others can hold a candle to Putin in terms of understanding anything about Germany or the role it has (had) in Europe and its people.

So, yes, Putin certainly knows exactly what he is doing. He has a plan, be sure.

From what i understand its the classic "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche" (Gingerbread and whiplash), or as Teddy R. would say: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Hes has managed to make russia a major provider of gas to Germany (30% of total) alone. Thats his "stick", and god knows how many other sticks he has at hand.
His media (with RT in front) are talking very softly. I havent seen them capitalizing on Germanys role in WWII much lately, but, boy is there a lot of talk how the US (and the current german government) are violating international law in spades around the world and thus betraying the interests of the german people. There is a reason they have created "RT deutsch".

He is a former intelligence officer, who bullied his way up in a country and time of great turmoil, and manages to stay afloat and in total control using every tool availiable to him, every. This is not the same ballpark as the incompetent fool with pathological tendencies in the white house, its not even the same sports. I bet he still cant believe his luck that the US castrated its own ability to stand up against him, and will use all his charms now...and his sticks.

The fact that he currently is in France, talking to Macron, right after the man with a spoiled childs character left, should tell us something.

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29-05-2017, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2017 11:52 AM by abaris.)
RE: A dumbass abroad
(29-05-2017 11:34 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Hes has managed to make russia a major provider of gas to Germany (30% of total) alone. Thats his "stick", and god knows how many other sticks he has at hand.

That, ironically, dates back to the Soviets satisfying the energy needs of the west. There was a reason why Reagan's policy was to lower energy prices worldwide. Much as a disliked the guy, he had a plan also. Since energy in the form of fossile fuels and gas, was the major export article of the Soviet Union, lower their value to dry them out financially. And that plan really came to fruition and is one of the reasons the soviet empire fell apart.

What's often forgotten is that Ukraine is much more dependant on russian gas. The Russians could simply say lights out, heat off and the Ukraine would fall into a major crisis. Especially if that was done in winter.

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30-05-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: A dumbass abroad
(29-05-2017 10:55 AM)abaris Wrote:  Today was a memorable day for me, as far as Trump and our media is concerned. I opened a mainstream daily, which usually doesn't take positions on the political spectrum. I started to read the leadin column, which was about Trump's first visit and was instantly amazed. Even in the first paragraph, right after the authour proclaimed that a spade should be called a spade, there were the words idiot, incompetent and sociopath. To understand my amazement over what I read, that's usually not how papers in Western Europe operate. You hardly find this choice of words in connection to a politician, let alone an American president.

So nice to see that our current president continues to break new ground in international relations. Hobo

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