A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
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16-09-2012, 01:37 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 01:33 PM)kim Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 02:11 PM)bemore Wrote:  So whilst a cow may not be able to discuss relativity with einstein and spends most of its days digesting plant life.... how do we know that its experience of fear is any different to ours???

It's not. But of course, our "traditional" constructs would have us think so. Thinking is believing, right? Some have decided to confuse thought with belief - it just makes things a lot easier. Sheesh... who wants to take care of the whole planet? Dodgy

The experience of fear is no different for a human that it is for a cow. It's just that since we are not cows, we don't know a cow to be fearful. We construct fallacies about many things, decide they are true (for all), and call them traditions... or beliefs, customs, etc.,. maybe even religions.

We know fear, but in order to do what we do with cows, we have to believe they do not know fear - at least not in the same way. Reason needs to be either ejected from the equation or altered... and since we're "thinking creatures" who depend on reason, we alter it.

Once the reasoning of "not like us" is added to belief, it becomes fused and confused with thinking. This becomes accepted, traditional thinking, a construct which clearly tips the scales in favor of our understanding. It becomes a reasoned belief that cows don't know fear ... not like us, anyway. We are at once distanced from and superior to the rest of the planet - and reasonably so.

So, it really is thinking - rational thought - clear logic - which could alter the trajectory of the species human. As well, alteration of this single, affecting species could redirect planetary populations and systems. And we know this, because there is precedent.

Humans might be better off if they began getting used to the idea that they will die soon. And yet, so many cling to irrational notions of eternal life. Go figure. Shy

Sorry, I guess I'm rambling, too. And I'm not even drinking! Tongue

We don't know that cows experience fear the same way we do. It is arguable that human fear is worse since we can look ahead to consequences, so our fear may have more layers and more intensity. It is also arguable that the cow's fear is worse because it is less conscious, less hopeful, more raw.

We don't know.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  We don't know that cows experience fear the same way we do. It is arguable that human fear is worse since we can look ahead to consequences, so our fear may have more layers and more intensity. It is also arguable that the cow's fear is worse because it is less conscious, less hopeful, more raw.

We don't know.

Possibly. So, I guess I would argue for a bit of both? Mmm, consequences. Consider Maybe fear is dependent on ... what? Who's in control of nature?

I'm only going by the looks I've seen in cows' faces when they've escaped from the holding pen on the kill floor of the processing plant. I wonder what consequences are on their mind? It's a difficult look to capture; it doesn't happen often and they run so damn fast when chased by wranglers with rifles in Jeeps.

Finding myself weaponless, I wonder how fast I would run being chased by a Grizzly Bear? Talk about raw consequences. Sadcryface

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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16-09-2012, 02:42 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 02:34 PM)kim Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  We don't know that cows experience fear the same way we do. It is arguable that human fear is worse since we can look ahead to consequences, so our fear may have more layers and more intensity. It is also arguable that the cow's fear is worse because it is less conscious, less hopeful, more raw.

We don't know.

Possibly. So, I guess I would argue for a bit of both? Mmm, consequences. Consider Maybe fear is dependent on ... what? Who's in control of nature?

I'm only going by the looks I've seen in cows' faces when they've escaped from the holding pen on the kill floor of the processing plant. I wonder what consequences are on their mind? It's a difficult look to capture; it doesn't happen often and they run so damn fast when chased by wranglers with rifles in Jeeps.

Finding myself weaponless, I wonder how fast I would run being chased by a Grizzly Bear? Talk about raw consequences. Sadcryface

Yes, I too have seen fear in animals. It's not something I want to be the cause of.

On grizzly bears: always go hiking or camping with someone you can outrun.Thumbsup

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 02:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  On grizzly bears: always go hiking or camping with someone you can outrun. Thumbsup

Ah so... in your wild kingdom, the golden rule would be, "Let it be done unto the other guy, to lessen the chances of it being done unto you." I see how ya are. Dodgy

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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16-09-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 03:29 PM)kim Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 02:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  On grizzly bears: always go hiking or camping with someone you can outrun. Thumbsup

Ah so... in your wild kingdom, the golden rule would be, "Let it be done unto the other guy, to lessen the chances of it being done unto you." I see how ya are. Dodgy

I've got an artificial knee, so I'm always that other guy. Sadcryface

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-09-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
Where are the biologists here?

Of course the cow feels the same shit we do, all of it. We all share the same hormones and nervous system. Duh!

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16-09-2012, 05:13 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 05:08 PM)Dom Wrote:  Where are the biologists here?

Of course the cow feels the same shit we do, all of it. We all share the same hormones and nervous system. Duh!

No, we don't. We have similar, but not identical, systems.

The real differences are cognitive/emotional; our brains are wired differently.

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17-09-2012, 12:17 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(16-09-2012 04:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  I've got an artificial knee, so I'm always that other guy. Sadcryface
Just how old are you? Blink Consider

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17-09-2012, 12:24 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(17-09-2012 12:17 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 04:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  I've got an artificial knee, so I'm always that other guy. Sadcryface
Just how old are you? Blink Consider

I got the artificial knee quite young. I had a bone tumor. Long story.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-09-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: A few thoughts on life on this planet....(ramblings)
(17-09-2012 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-09-2012 12:17 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Just how old are you? Blink Consider

I got the artificial knee quite young. I had a bone tumor. Long story.

As long as you're near me O Terse One you'll be fine, years of hockey and football has ruined both my knees, so you'll be one up on meWeeping

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