A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
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23-08-2016, 01:50 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
Nice post SYZ. Thumbsup

Sadly, because KerimF would rather try and score points etc and not actually,

A) Try and learn the language they are conversing in. (But hey! KerimF is doing waaay better than Dear Borg over in those other threads, so there's hope! Thumbsup )

B) Not take people's advice on how to better communicate so that productive discussion can proceed. (As in shorter, simpler sentence structure and word choice)

C) KerimF does seem to simply put words on the screen ad then dictate what those symbols mean, instead of actually learning what the words mean/represent and thence string thoughts productively.

Then we keep getting these 'Sound bite' sized replies so the whole thing stutters along and, really, not much is being gained. Sad
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23-08-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
Yokozuna Christian.

[Image: jesussumo.jpg]

#sigh
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23-08-2016, 04:05 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
I grew up as a Christians in a fundamentalist Christian society and all the Christians I knew thought God was perfect and that Jesus had all the answers. Kerim, do you actually discuss this with practicing Christians?

You can't start a debate with a proposition which isn't true and then expect people to join in. Christians all believe that Jesus was God on earth and that God is all-powerful and all-good.
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23-08-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 04:05 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I grew up as a Christians in a fundamentalist Christian society and all the Christians I knew thought God was perfect and that Jesus had all the answers. Kerim, do you actually discuss this with practicing Christians?

You can't start a debate with a proposition which isn't true and then expect people to join in. Christians all believe that Jesus was God on earth and that God is all-powerful and all-good.

You might want to read that and apply it to yourself.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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23-08-2016, 05:25 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(22-08-2016 11:20 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 06:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  What an odd way of thinking, the vast majority of Christians do assert that god is perfect, here's the top five returns from a simple Google search:

Is god perfect? -Yes.

Here's a Rick Warren article on it:

We Are Not Perfect, But Our God Is

Here are a few bible quotes:


Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here' an article that cites 41 bible verses that support the notion of god being perfect:

41 bible verses about God's perfection.

It's this assertion of perfection that makes the concept of the Abrahamic god so stupid. It's a meaningless term that can be defined in any way you can imagine.

It's a term that gives you insight into the nature of the Abrahamic god because perfection is an imaginary concept and it only applies to imaginary beings.

You can define a "True Christian" or a "Formal Christian" any way you want, because there's no such thing as a "True Christian", however, very few Christians will agree with your definition.

Pot meet kettle, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

What other useless, ill-defined concepts can we proffer our opinion on? The list is essentially infinite, as is an imaginary god with imaginary characteristics.

For instance, a real (practical) perfection is like all other things in our existence, it is relative, not absolute.

In other words, something is said perfect if there is nothing equivalent to it and better than it in some aspects.

Kerim

You are comparing something imaginary that is assigned the label "perfect" with things that actually exist.

Again, there is no such thing as perfect, except in your imagination.

Also, I note that you have very poor knowledge of the bible if you are asserting that the god within it's pages is not described as perfect.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-08-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(22-08-2016 10:53 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(20-08-2016 12:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  It’s there, you just can’t see it. Similar to...oh, never mind. Angel

Sorry, It is my fault... Blush
I thought that most readers have the skill to read between lines. So I should be more careful in the future and remember that some human beings have to see and hear things in order to get them.

Kerim

Oh, but it's ultimately my fault for being 'unskilled'. I see. Well, because I'm slow, can you point to the part of your original post where you alluded to this subtle message? Just show me what it was that you said and why a reasonable person should have interpreted it differently.
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23-08-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(19-08-2016 04:52 PM)julep Wrote:  It will be more stupid. Or at the very least, less coherent, plus the tiresome conspiracy theory that I still find pretty anti-semitc at base...rich people driving wars to the benefit of Israel and "international bankers"...

Sorry...
The today's Saudi was created right after WW1 (in which France and Britain were used to get rid of the Ottoman Empire).
The today's Israel was created right after the destruction of Europe by WW2 (in which the German Elite were used to put France and Britain out of the world's powers game, for good).
The today's ISIS was created after the withdrawal of the US army from Iraq (It was introduced first, with a great success, by sacrificing/massacring, horribly and in front of the entire world, a few thousands only of innocent civilians in NYC on 9/11/2001).

All three are actually military bases, controlled fully by their creators (most of their generations live in USA).

Right now, these three American military bases are working together in destroying one country after another in the Arab World for the glory of America.

And if we live to the next decade, we will also witness the re-destruction of Europe (with the total knowledge of the today's European Elite playing as Bush, junior... the naïve ignorant kids... about the millions of European kids who were already raised, since more than a decade but now in sleep mode, to play the terrorists in the American series "War on Terror").

I am not on one side against another (to me, people are victims in all sides and bases). I am just presenting the fruits (facts) of the wars and terror that happened during the last 125 years in the least and have all ended up to the same greatest beneficiary side (living in USA... but surely, not the majority of the American people).

Kerim

Called it.
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23-08-2016, 09:06 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
*Sigh*

And here we go again.....

(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Sorry...
The today's Saudi was created right after WW1 (in which France and Britain were used to get rid of the Ottoman Empire).

No, this is not what happened. Please, ask forum members for good links to other history sites to learn some modern history and acquire a better perspective.

(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  The today's Israel was created right after the destruction of Europe by WW2 (in which the German Elite were used to put France and Britain out of the world's powers game, for good).

No, this is not what happened. Please, ask forum members for good links to other history sites to learn some modern history and acquire a better perspective.

(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  The today's ISIS was created after the withdrawal of the US army from Iraq (It was introduced first, with a great success, by sacrificing/massacring, horribly and in front of the entire world, a few thousands only of innocent civilians in NYC on 9/11/2001).

No, this is not what happened. Please, ask forum members for good links to other history sites to learn some modern history and acquire a better perspective.


(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  All three are actually military bases, controlled fully by their creators (most of their generations live in USA).

Right now, these three American military bases are working together in destroying one country after another in the Arab World for the glory of America.

You are again simply throwing weird ideas onto other people. There are and have been posters replying to you ion this very forum who are posting FROM the country that you are demonizing.

I'm sorry, but I feel the need to highlight part of that last bit:

There are and have been posters replying to you on this very forum who are posting FROM the country(s) that you are demonizing.


(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  And if we live to the next decade, we will also witness the re-destruction of Europe (with the total knowledge of the today's European Elite playing as Bush, junior... the naïve ignorant kids... about the millions of European kids who were already raised, since more than a decade but now in sleep mode, to play the terrorists in the American series "War on Terror").

*Sigh* More strange ramblings and again I point out that;


There are and have been posters replying to you ion this very forum who are posting FROM the country(s) that you are demonizing.


Who constantly disagree with you as well as point out where you are wrong.

(22-08-2016 10:44 PM)KerimF Wrote:  I am not on one side against another (to me, people are victims in all sides and bases). I am just presenting the fruits (facts) of the wars and terror that happened during the last 125 years in the least and have all ended up to the same greatest beneficiary side (living in USA... but surely, not the majority of the American people).

Kerim

No. No

Sadly your posts simply constantly show how little knowledge you have of the world outside of your own. Sad

Hug Again I wish you well and can but hope that things calm and settle and get better in your part of the world.
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23-08-2016, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2016 11:20 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 04:16 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(23-08-2016 04:05 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I grew up as a Christians in a fundamentalist Christian society and all the Christians I knew thought God was perfect and that Jesus had all the answers. Kerim, do you actually discuss this with practicing Christians?

You can't start a debate with a proposition which isn't true and then expect people to join in. Christians all believe that Jesus was God on earth and that God is all-powerful and all-good.

You might want to read that and apply it to yourself.

I don't start any debate here with an "untrue proposition". I start with a question or hypothesis. I don't say any of what I am posting is "true". It's impossible to say, about events thousands of years ago that any particular interpretation is "true" since none of us was there. All one can do is put forward what one thinks is the best explanation and then follow it with the "facts" or arguments, such as they are, which tend to support the hypothesis. Even with good arguments and facts one can only say that they "tend" to show that something "may" be more likely to be a better explanation than some other explanation and this always going to be conditioned by the facts and arguments that one presents. If you think I am putting a case too strongly, then I would suggest it is because you think I don't have any background in what constitutes "proving" things, and, in fact, that is something I do have. so you needn't think I am asserting anything as something which should be accepted as "truth" by anyone. I just put ideas out there, but what I get back is dogmatic assertions of "truth" based on majority view, which isn't proof of anything and ignores subjectivity and other flaws in reliance upon written "evidence" of academic writers alone.

What you are missing here is the problem we all face, if we deal with Muslim intellectual culture.

Islam asserts that all things depend on Allah and that Muslims are "born" Muslims. If they leave, they must be killed. That is a terrifying and all-embracing cult from which very few Muslims can escape in any way. Muslim historical method is religious. You will find Muslim historians justify what would today be charactarized as war crimes because they say peace treaties are laws of men and not of Allah and can be ignored if some invading Muslim leader decides to massacre surrendering leaders after negotiating a peace.

Just keep reading what Kerim posts and you'll see the workings of an Islamified mind. He, like pretty much all Muslims, cannot conceive of anything outside Islam and cannot put any intellectual distance between themselves and Islam. They have to analyze everything from the point of view that there is only one God and he is Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet and the Koran is utterly and totally true, which means that all other written works are not true.

Kerim is not putting forward a proposition that for logical reasons, based on observable facts and reasoned arguments, Christianity must be imperfect and incomplete. He says this because that is the Islamic position, by necessity. It's a very simple and easy position to make. Islam is perfect, and Christianity is not Islam so it can't be perfect. He hasn't read anything about Christianity or discussed this with any Christians because he isn't allowed to read his own Koran let alone Christian works, because he would risk being thought of as an apostate and being sentenced to death.

He therefore thinks that because Allah is perfect, and Allah's world view is and must be correct, then the whole world recognizes that the Christian god must be imperfect, and this must be accepted by Christians, because he can't figure out how to look at this from any other perspective than from within Islam.

It's a funny situation. I find this coming up in my daily dealings with people around me here, who are mainly Muslims. They have no conception of how it is even possible to think about things from any other angle. Everything is seen through an Islamic lens and there is no other lens to see through. You can't have a discussion with these people for two reasons. They haven't been exposed to non-religious modes of analysis, and, what is more disturbing, you can't broach the subject with them because they know if they say anything which sets them apart from their kinfolk, it's apostasy and death for them. So, you endanger them by even talking to them and trying to get them to agree with anything you say. The result is that you don't oppose anything they say.

It's like not wanting to tell a small child that Santa isn't real. He is indoctrinated into believing it's so and if he doesn't believe, he thinks, he won't get a present, so you don't hurt his feelings by even attempting to discuss the "truth" with him.

With Islam, it's insidious and pervasive. You know that they say that you can't, for instance, run your own business without a Muslim partner who has a majority interest in your business and could get rid of you once he's picked your brains and your business is up and running. You know you can't worship in any church of any religion other than Islam, because it is against the law. So, you go along with it, and think that by doing so, you are making these people happy, and that they will like you and appreciate your religious tolerance of their religion.

They, on the other hand, have no respect for you, whatsoever, because Allah tells them not to respect you. So, when they rob you, pick your pocket, defraud you, it comes as a shock to you, but they are hunky dory with it because that is what they do and they do it because it is right, and because you deserve it. If you try to stand up to them or do anything about it, they rally round each other and make sure you know that you are not one of them and you have no rights since Allah says you don't and because Allah insists that you be treated that way. They are doing god's will, there is only one god, and his will is all pervasive so you must know you are an apostate and you deserve your punishment and to be treated that way.

Kerim comes here "knowing" we Westerners of whatever ilk, are all wrong and he thinks we must know this because he is right because his god has told him so and he isn't here to have a debate. He's just here looking at people who are wrong, damned by Allah and don't want to admit it. Even if we did, of course, we would only be converts, and not "born Muslim". It's a "disconnect". We aren't on the same page. We're not even in the same library.

It's a sorry situation and I had hoped Islamic countries would be different, but my experience here, along with that of the rest of the foreign community is the same. You can't speak to them on terms which they understand.
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23-08-2016, 11:30 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2016 11:43 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
My own view of this issue is that we in the West are sleepwalking into a very dangerous situation and it's playing itself out almost daily around the world.

I think there was some kind of sense that if we in the West supported groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and the Turkish Gulenist movement and other Islamic groups, then we would be ok.

The reasoning seems to me to go along the lines that, first, all region is peaceful. After all, Christains are always talking about "love they neighbour" etc. So, we think, religions must be good and the problem is that too many people are losing their religion and, surely, if we enlist the help of religious groups, the world will be a better place.

What we don't understand is that fundamentalist Christianity and Islam are complete opposites of each other. Fundamentalist Christians go back to the New Testament and read "do unto others" and "blessed are the meek" and similar exhortations and the "goodness" of it all sends them into raptures and they then go around trying to get people to love each other.

Fundamentalist Muslims go back to the Koran which tells them that after Ramadan, they should kill non-believers who aren't prepared to pay a tax or convert, and to kill other people who don't want to continue following this belief system. It tells them to kill homosexuals and to cut off people's hands and limbs for committing thefts out of poverty.

With the declining interest and appreciation of history in favor of watching "Jersey Shores", people now don't understand that religious freedoms were fought for in order to stop religion suppressing free thought of individuals. Freedom of religion was not intended to protect religions which suppress free thought altogether.

I wonder if Kerim "gets" any of this, or anything at all.

The one saving grace of all this is the internet and the fact that individuals can now get access to different ideas and cultures without their Immam breathing down their necks, and that the little "prayer rooms" in airports and other public buildings are pretty much empty here. Recently, a lady lawyer took five Mosques go court got an injunction against them from blasting out the call to prayer at 5 am every morning because it was making her too tired to work.

I was standing talking to a care mechanic the other day and the call to prayer came on over a loudspeaker (not even attached to a Mosque). We couldn't hear each other speak and he rolled his eyes in disgust. You tune it out, it's like white noise, no one goes to Mosque unless they are a demented male teenager with a grudge and nothing else to do. They take off their shoes, wander into a bare, stark, empty building and bend over several times while someone chants something repetetively, or doesn't. Either way, they then leave and think they are ok with Allah, for some reason. Like I say, it's like children and Santa and maybe they are thinking of the seventy two wide eyed virgins they're going to get in heaven. Who knows, who cares... It's a form of mental illness.
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