A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
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23-08-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(19-08-2016 02:22 PM)KerimF Wrote:  A formal Christian is a person who sees himself belonging to an organized Christian group; as a denomination or alike.

A formal Christian agrees or was taught that Jesus Christ is god.

At the same time, a formal Christian is not supposed to consider the teachings of Jesus as being perfect. In other words, for a formal Christian, the divine teachings of Jesus are imperfect; they cannot answer (logically) all important questions about life and the reality of the world that a man ‘may’ need to know/discover. Therefore, a formal Christian equates all imperfect teachings of prophets (besides other men known as saints, apostles and disciples) to the teachings of Jesus who is supposed to be his god; his Creator.

Conclusion, a formal Christian ignores his god more than an atheist does.

In fact, believing that a god cannot be perfect is much worse than saying “god doesn’t exist”.

Kerim

Kerim, you don't understand that Westerners are obsessed with perfection so the Christian god has to be perfect. Even our supermarkets have to be perfect:



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23-08-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
Ok, first we had Pops vs Pasadi, now -possibly- Kerim vs Delta

The end is nigh, repent! Angel

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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24-08-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
As a "formal Christian" I believe that you're full of shit.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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24-08-2016, 11:56 PM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 01:00 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(22-08-2016 11:35 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Sorry, as long a person cannot define, for himself in the least, what the word 'god' does mean to him, I can't imagine on which logical basis he can talk about god's existence!... about the existence of an undefined thing, called god!

I define the word "god" in precisely the same way as I define the word "unicorn" Kerim.

Both words describe mythical, make-believe entities that exist solely in a person's imagination—with no viable evidence proving they exist, or have ever existed. It's a nonsense to claim that an atheist cannot define what the word "god" means to him—I just did.

And while we're at it, I wonder how you can explain the presence of unicorns in your bible?

Isaiah 34:7 —"And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."

Christian apologists maintain that the the original Hebrew word re’em means oxen, but the critical "and" in Isaiah (above) disproves that.

I am sorry for not being clear.
First, I am not an expert in the fairy tales that had to be addressed to some ancient people on earth (kids of humanity) and could be found on what is known now as the Old Testament. I personally used looking for what helps me get practical information about my personal existence (and death) and how the world into which I brought runs in reality (on the ground).

Second, if I understood you well, the god (that doesn't exist in your reality... and mine as well) is the one whose image is defined and referred to on the Old Testament.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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25-08-2016, 12:43 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 01:42 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(23-08-2016 12:06 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Yes, there are even formal atheists as well Big Grin

Nope. There is no such thing as a "formal" atheist. Formal is defined as observant of conventional requirements of behavior, procedure, or ceremony.
Atheists—unlike the religious—obviously cannot be described with any of these terms.

It's more than obvious you have little idea of what it means to describe oneself as an atheist—possibly because you're trying to use the same parameters and terms of reference that you use to define your religion. Atheism is a purely abstract thing, or simply just a state of mind. It's no more significant than saying "I'm happy" or "I'm in love" or "I'm anxious". All four are just states of mind with no physical attribution.

On the other hand, if you're a theist, then your beliefs go way beyond simply a singular state of mind. You accept the substantive existence of gods and angels, heaven and hell, miracles and prayer, omnipotence and omniscience, resurrection and parthenogenesis etc.

Finally, you can be a "practicing" theist, but you cannot be a practicing atheist; there's nothing to practice. No god-figure; no temples of worship; no wise men (priests/preachers/rabbis); no holy book; no dogma; no periodic gatherings or ceremonies (baptism/eucharist/liturgies); no symbolic artifacts etc.

If I understood you well, a real atheist is a person who believes whatever his personal reasoning approves. Otherwise, an atheist should also have his wise men (for example, scientists/scholars approved by a well known organization in the least) and his holy articles that are written by his trusted thinkers also working for (or supervised by) a well known agency or system.
About his periodic gatherings and ceremonies, he likely attends the free democratic elections/polls that lead to 50.1% which is equivalent to 99.9%; both results are actually non-realistic (man-made).
Finally, do you mean that all atheists have no flag for which they are ready to risk their life and even die?

On my side, I have no man who is wiser than me; at best, a man could be as wise as I am Wink
I have doubts about the information given by 'any' reference said scientific or else Wink So I can't accept and add an idea (which should be useful in my life) to my set of knowledge till it passes the processes of my logical reasoning.
Since long, I didn't join even a dancing party Big Grin
Finally, I have no sacred things (religious, political or else) as many people may have.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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25-08-2016, 12:49 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 11:47 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(19-08-2016 02:22 PM)KerimF Wrote:  A formal Christian is a person who sees himself belonging to an organized Christian group; as a denomination or alike.

A formal Christian agrees or was taught that Jesus Christ is god.

At the same time, a formal Christian is not supposed to consider the teachings of Jesus as being perfect. In other words, for a formal Christian, the divine teachings of Jesus are imperfect; they cannot answer (logically) all important questions about life and the reality of the world that a man ‘may’ need to know/discover. Therefore, a formal Christian equates all imperfect teachings of prophets (besides other men known as saints, apostles and disciples) to the teachings of Jesus who is supposed to be his god; his Creator.

Conclusion, a formal Christian ignores his god more than an atheist does.

In fact, believing that a god cannot be perfect is much worse than saying “god doesn’t exist”.

Kerim

Kerim, you don't understand that Westerners are obsessed with perfection so the Christian god has to be perfect. Even our supermarkets have to be perfect:




But it happens I didn't meet yet even one Westerner Christian who does see Jesus teachings being perfect by themselves. He (starting from the Pope at Vatican-Rome) feels the need to read/learn what many others also said... known as prophets, saints and alike.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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25-08-2016, 01:05 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 01:50 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Nice post SYZ. Thumbsup

Sadly, because KerimF would rather try and score points etc and not actually,

A) Try and learn the language they are conversing in. (But hey! KerimF is doing waaay better than Dear Borg over in those other threads, so there's hope! Thumbsup )

B) Not take people's advice on how to better communicate so that productive discussion can proceed. (As in shorter, simpler sentence structure and word choice)

C) KerimF does seem to simply put words on the screen ad then dictate what those symbols mean, instead of actually learning what the words mean/represent and thence string thoughts productively.

Then we keep getting these 'Sound bite' sized replies so the whole thing stutters along and, really, not much is being gained. Sad

Thank you for the advices.
But I am sorry, I can't say things just to please others (I have many if I want to Wink ).

By the way, don't you know that telling, in front of the entire world, the whole truth of some important natural rules is a serious crime for which the teller deserves even the penalty of death in the name of Justice (said of god or men)?

On the other hand, should you gain anything from what I write Wink
Please don't tell me you don't know already everything you are interested in about life and the world.
Therefore, Kerim should be for you just a writer of new fairy tales (written in weak English) though not as good/perfect as the ones made at Hollywood and in politics Big Grin

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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25-08-2016, 01:17 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
At work.

There is so much I want to 'Yay!' and Thumbsup to you KerimF.

On the flip side there is also so much "NO!" and wrong to point out.

Will try later when I have time and keyboard.
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25-08-2016, 01:20 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 04:05 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I grew up as a Christians in a fundamentalist Christian society and all the Christians I knew thought God was perfect and that Jesus had all the answers. Kerim, do you actually discuss this with practicing Christians?

You can't start a debate with a proposition which isn't true and then expect people to join in. Christians all believe that Jesus was God on earth and that God is all-powerful and all-good.

Thank you for this valuable information.
If I understood you well, the Christians (you knew in the least) don't see the need to learn anything serious from the Old Testament and from what is said by men other than Jesus on the New Testament as well.

If this is the case, I wish I meet any of these special Christians.
Thank you.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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25-08-2016, 01:58 AM
RE: A formal Christian does not believe his god can be perfect
(23-08-2016 05:25 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-08-2016 11:20 PM)KerimF Wrote:  For instance, a real (practical) perfection is like all other things in our existence, it is relative, not absolute.

In other words, something is said perfect if there is nothing equivalent to it and better than it in some aspects.

Kerim

You are comparing something imaginary that is assigned the label "perfect" with things that actually exist.

Again, there is no such thing as perfect, except in your imagination.

Also, I note that you have very poor knowledge of the bible if you are asserting that the god within it's pages is not described as perfect.

You remind me when I asked a professor at my first university to grade my knowledge and conduct before I joined another university for MS (in electronics). There were 3 options for him to choose from: Outstanding, Good and Fair. He checked the good ones only. By curiosity, I told him: "It is sad that you didn't check even one Outstanding. To my big surprise I heard him say: Outstanding is for God only... Shocking Big Grin

I am afraid that, also here, the word 'perfect' is a man-made thing in order to describe real things. But no one can stop a person who likes considering this word 'perfect' as my professor did about the word 'outstanding'.

On the other hand, even if my professor did say I am very good (outstanding) in a certain aspect, this doesn't mean anything if he doesn't really act based on what he says.
I mean anyone can say Jesus is god... Jesus is perfect.
But how many Christians in the world have discovered that the Old Testament was addressed to the ancient people only (as we teach our kids with incomplete information to prepare them for the complete known science later)?
Also, how many Christians in the world consider Jesus teaching as being much more important than of others, like of St. Paul for example?

In real life, saying and acting may be very different, if not opposing, towards a certain belief (said religious or scientific).

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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