A funny closed mind
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18-03-2011, 04:34 PM
RE: A funny closed mind
This is what you get for getting sosa started - Big Grin
Sorry for you , but he is one of our more educated members in the workings of politics and economics.

Going to make some pop-corn Tongue - this is gonna be good

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

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18-03-2011, 05:23 PM
RE: A funny closed mind
Lol. I try not to get too into it. I already frequent another forum that's for discussing these topics. I don't really come to this forum for that.

"Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." Mikhail Bakunin
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18-03-2011, 05:44 PM
RE: A funny closed mind
(18-03-2011 05:23 PM)sosa Wrote:  Lol. I try not to get too into it. I already frequent another forum that's for discussing these topics. I don't really come to this forum for that.
But you do it so well. I think I learn two new things every time you post on the topic.

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18-03-2011, 06:39 PM
RE: A funny closed mind
Thanks for that but I'm not even the most knowledgeable one on this. I just try to clear up misconceptions and bring my own perspective to the table.

"Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." Mikhail Bakunin
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18-03-2011, 11:40 PM
RE: A funny closed mind
(18-03-2011 06:39 PM)sosa Wrote:  Thanks for that but I'm not even the most knowledgeable one on this. I just try to clear up misconceptions and bring my own perspective to the table.

That definitely comes in handy when theists show up here. Every one that I have [seen] here has misconceptions.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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19-03-2011, 12:57 AM
RE: A funny closed mind
(18-03-2011 05:23 PM)sosa Wrote:  Lol. I try not to get too into it. I already frequent another forum that's for discussing these topics. I don't really come to this forum for that.

You call that "not getting to into it"?! Wow.Then a little warning for you. If it where five lines longer, I wouldn't have bothered. When I have to get out a pen and start taking notes as I am reading, the post is to damn long! Tongue

I really had to twist my head to see at which point I was disagreeing with you. I think I have concluded that it is just a matter of defining the word "socialism". That is no small matter btw. The most frustrating part for me when discussing politics, is when people seem to think that all socialists are communists and all capitalists are republicans.
I'll grant it at once that I am probably wrong on this, and you Sosa is probably right. Your post makes it abundantly clear that you have done your share of reading on the subject.
What I take issue with is when you say
Quote:Socialism is fundamentally a mode of production based on democratic rather than despotic control of the productive processes.
.
I live in a socialist state where "mode of production" for the most part functions in the same way it does in a non-socialist state. Its open market capitalism. What defines us as a socialist state is how we spend the surplus we produce. In other words, how we are taxed and how our government spends our tax money.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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19-03-2011, 01:34 AM
RE: A funny closed mind
(19-03-2011 12:57 AM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  
(18-03-2011 05:23 PM)sosa Wrote:  Lol. I try not to get too into it. I already frequent another forum that's for discussing these topics. I don't really come to this forum for that.

You call that "not getting to into it"?! Wow.Then a little warning for you. If it where five lines longer, I wouldn't have bothered. When I have to get out a pen and start taking notes as I am reading, the post is to damn long! Tongue

I really had to twist my head to see at which point I was disagreeing with you. I think I have concluded that it is just a matter of defining the word "socialism". That is no small matter btw. The most frustrating part for me when discussing politics, is when people seem to think that all socialists are communists and all capitalists are republicans.
I'll grant it at once that I am probably wrong on this, and you Sosa is probably right. Your post makes it abundantly clear that you have done your share of reading on the subject.
What I take issue with is when you say
Quote:Socialism is fundamentally a mode of production based on democratic rather than despotic control of the productive processes.
.
I live in a socialist state where "mode of production" for the most part functions in the same way it does in a non-socialist state. Its open market capitalism. What defines us as a socialist state is how we spend the surplus we produce. In other words, how we are taxed and how our government spends our tax money.

Your right on the part of how Socialism is defined. For the most part its used synonymous with communism. Sometimes its referred to as the stage before communism. I thinks its safe to say that socialism boils down to workers having control of the production. social democratic states aren't generally considered socialists by many leftists simply because they operate within the capitalist market. In fact you'll find that many (me included) will point out that the USSR, China, etc. are and were not socialist (because workers did not have control) but state capitalist (or state socialist whatever your tendency is). The general understanding of what socialism is not dependent on how you spend the surplus but the relationship between workers and the mode of production. What you're referring to is a welfare state. I hope I'm not confusing you with this. All I can do is point to you the material and make up your own mind because even within the left there is always disagreements on how socialism is defined and what makes a society socialist etc, etc.

"Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." Mikhail Bakunin
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19-03-2011, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2011 10:31 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: A funny closed mind
(18-03-2011 01:55 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  . . . First of all, if you start to look at socialism thinking of it as an economic system or a way of controlling production processes, then you have it all backwards.
Socialism is an ideology. The way a social democracy constructs it's economic system is a consequence of this ideology.
I'll sum up the idea as short as I can.
A state with a social ideology strives to distribute wealth as evenly as possible between it's citizens. It tries to give all citizens equal access to things like education and medical treatment. The idea being that if everyone contributes as best they can to make sure that everyone gets a chance at a productive, fulfilling and secure life, then society as a whole will benefit.
That's sounds like an economic ideology as it has to do with how the social groups interact; but then again you did say, "The way a social democracy constructs it's economic system is a consequence of this ideology"
Where as, what you put forth here would better explain the social ideology:
(19-03-2011 12:57 AM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  . . . What defines us as a socialist state is how we spend the surplus we produce. In other words, how we are taxed and how our government spends our tax money.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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19-03-2011, 11:50 AM
RE: A funny closed mind
uhmm.. I really don't see the difference. Is there something we are not clear on?

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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20-03-2011, 08:17 AM
RE: A funny closed mind
What I don't get is the need to demonize it. if you don't want to live by the rules of socialism, can't you just say "yeah, its a different idea but its not for me?" It makes me wonder if it threatens the elitism of the powers that be and thusly they have to denigrate it and pay their propaganda hounds to put as much spin (and sometimes dishonesty) into the subject as possible.

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