A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 02:54 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 06:21 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So true reason... It's genocide wrong?
If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

If you don't know how you could call genocide wrong without God, then you,Sir, have forefeited humanity.

You clearly do not know Genetic Altruism. Or the evidence that supports it.

Do I honestly deserve a punishment for something God made me do?

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21-08-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

You can say that *you* cannot morally accept it. You can *choose* to fight for a society in which it is recognized as wrong and undesirable... you *can't* say that it's some kind of natural law or dictated by some higher power that it is wrong, but you *can* say that a society without genocide / mass murder is a better and more desirable one than one without.
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21-08-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 06:46 AM)DLJ Wrote:  What incentive is there for your future flock to believe what you tell them?

What penalty is there if they choose not to believe it?
If my flock believes the Gospel, they will receive eternal life by placing their faith in Jesus Christ. If they do not, they will receive what we all deserve which is destruction. The real question though, is what I am telling them true? Just because believing what I say has good benefits, does not say anything about the actual truthfulness of that belief. To say that would be to commit the genetic fallacy.
If you told me that if I walked to store down the street I would get a free burger, but if I didn't I would remain hungry, the truthfulness of what you told me would not be dependent on whether I thought the supposed consequences of following what you said would be swell. It depends wholly on whether there are actually free burgers down the street, and what proof we have that might indicate that this is true. In the same way, the truth of the Gospel is not dependent on its appeal but on its actual correspondence with the true nature of things. Therefore, let's not muddy the waters here. Let's look at what proof there is for the existence of God and the case for Christianity.
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21-08-2012, 03:04 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Killing a massive amount of INNOCENT people is wrong. The nations God commanded to be destroyed in the Old Testament was due to the evil in their midst.

God will one day punish all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The nations of the OT we justly punished, and they honestly received a punishment that you , I , and everybody deserves.

So again, yes genocide is wrong because it is the murder of innocent people. As humans, we do not possess the authority to take life. God is the ultimate judge and therefore his punishment of those nations was justifiable.

I don't expect you accept this response, but that is the truth if God exists.
You have to start learning the definition of words before you use them. Genocide has nothing to do with whether or not the people being killed are innocent.

genocide - Pronunciation: /ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Sources:
Oxford dictionary
Several other dictionaries

(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.
"Religion poisons everything." - Christopher Hitchens

It saddens me that you couldn't tell whether or not the Holocaust was wrong without a belief based on blind faith. Am I right to assume that you share WLC's belief that there are objective morals in case the Christian god exists, whereas there are none at all if he doesn't?

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21-08-2012, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 03:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Killing a massive amount of INNOCENT people is wrong. The nations God commanded to be destroyed in the Old Testament was due to the evil in their midst.

God will one day punish all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The nations of the OT we justly punished, and they honestly received a punishment that you , I , and everybody deserves.

So again, yes genocide is wrong because it is the murder of innocent people. As humans, we do not possess the authority to take life. God is the ultimate judge and therefore his punishment of those nations was justifiable.

I don't expect you accept this response, but that is the truth if God exists.

If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

"Personhood" is also a legal term. Legally, corporations are people. The term is meaningless in this context. "Personhood" is granted by law, (or the states arguing this would not be arguing it).

The innocent women and children in the massive "punishment events" in the Bible did nothing wrong. They were also MASSIVE amount of innocents, killed by your god. Your genocidal god. The only thing they did wrong was be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If "evil in their midst" is the criteria, then I guess YOU are up for extermination, even if YOU have done nothing wrong. Give me a break. This is laughable. The reason the massive exterminations were written into the Bible was to justify the expansionary land claims, and ambitions of the Hebrews against their neighboring city-states, and back-end justify it by use of their god's anger. The entire business of a "chosen" people, and "promised land", was an attempt to justify the taking of land, on which others already lived.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Hey TP,
Since the feeding frenzy has begun, I'll throw out some more chum:

If you were born in Iran instead of America, what religion would you believe to be the one true Truth?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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21-08-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:21 AM)bemore Wrote:  Ive got a question for you, any other theists can answer as well if they choose.

You worship a Christian God...... who has only ever (in this current version) been around for about 2000 years.

Before this latest "version update" of christianity came into existence there have been many different gods and goddesses worshipped all over the globe...... people prayed to these different gods, they made offerings and sometimes sacrifices. They went to war in the name of these gods and they had more believers back then.

So in the knowledge that there have been quite possibly hundreds of different gods throughout the ages..... in comparison why should you believe your god over all of the previous gods, that nobody worships anymore???

Also you Pro Abortion and Pro Gay...... cool, im glad that you think that way.... however is that not majorly hippocritical of you to go against the words that you are going to be spending the next 2-5 years studying???

Your views on Abortion and Homosexuals matches mine.... live and let live..... how is it then that if you have these views you can still associate yourself with an organisation that goes against your beliefs and causes suffering to thousands of people over those two causes???

Welcome to the forum by the way Big Grin
I think there maybe some confusion...I am neither pro-gay nor pro-choice. Therefore, there is no hypocrisy.

As for the other gods of the ancient world, they differ vastly from the God of the Bible. Unlike the gods of the surrounding cultures, Yahweh was above and beyond the physical universe, whereas the other gods were bound to forces of nature and physical entities. Therefore, the God of the Bible is far more philosophically sophisticated than it's counterparts who bound god in graven images and forces and objects understood through science. The Christian God created the natural order and thus he not dependent, nor a part of that creation, for nothing that has been created could have been the cause of its own creation. In short, we have no reason to believe in the other ancient gods due to scientific discovery and advances in philosophical which demand a God who is outside of His creation.
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21-08-2012, 03:13 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:12 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Hey TP,
Since the feeding frenzy has begun, I'll throw out some more chum:

If you were born in Iran instead of America, what religion would you believe to be the one true Truth?

Probably Islam.
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21-08-2012, 03:16 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:39 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If one approaches the science from a purely naturalistic philosophy, that will drastically affect the possible conclusions he can reach in those studies. Therefore, I do not believe apologetics is exclusive to Christianity. Christians simply use the word more.

Nope. One can reach conclusions from evidence....any evidence. One cannot reach woo-woo conclusions in Phisics because there is no data for woo-woo. One's "philosophy" has nothing to do with one's conclusions. One is led by the data. Not by "beliefs". Very often, what one "believes to be true", may not be.

I'll go to the Chairman of Physics tomorrow at CalTech, and tell him we need an Apologetics Department. Then I'll get laughed out of town, and maybe escorted over to Mental Health.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:12 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 07:21 AM)bemore Wrote:  Ive got a question for you, any other theists can answer as well if they choose.

You worship a Christian God...... who has only ever (in this current version) been around for about 2000 years.

Before this latest "version update" of christianity came into existence there have been many different gods and goddesses worshipped all over the globe...... people prayed to these different gods, they made offerings and sometimes sacrifices. They went to war in the name of these gods and they had more believers back then.

So in the knowledge that there have been quite possibly hundreds of different gods throughout the ages..... in comparison why should you believe your god over all of the previous gods, that nobody worships anymore???

Also you Pro Abortion and Pro Gay...... cool, im glad that you think that way.... however is that not majorly hippocritical of you to go against the words that you are going to be spending the next 2-5 years studying???

Your views on Abortion and Homosexuals matches mine.... live and let live..... how is it then that if you have these views you can still associate yourself with an organisation that goes against your beliefs and causes suffering to thousands of people over those two causes???

Welcome to the forum by the way Big Grin
I think there maybe some confusion...I am neither pro-gay nor pro-choice. Therefore, there is no hypocrisy.

As for the other gods of the ancient world, they differ vastly from the God of the Bible. Unlike the gods of the surrounding cultures, Yahweh was above and beyond the physical universe, whereas the other gods were bound to forces of nature and physical entities. Therefore, the God of the Bible is far more philosophically sophisticated than it's counterparts who bound god in graven images and forces and objects understood through science. The Christian God created the natural order and thus he not dependent, nor a part of that creation, for nothing that has been created could have been the cause of its own creation. In short, we have no reason to believe in the other ancient gods due to scientific discovery and advances in philosophical which demand a God who is outside of His creation.

Yes, but the flying spaghetti monster is also above science and the natural world. This is true because it is written (see previous sentence for proof).

So now you have as much proof that FSM is the one true god as you do that the god of the bible is.

And yes, I do realize that my reasoning is full of holes, but no more than yours. Atheist yet?

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