A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 03:25 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Killing a massive amount of INNOCENT people is wrong. The nations God commanded to be destroyed in the Old Testament was due to the evil in their midst.

God will one day punish all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The nations of the OT we justly punished, and they honestly received a punishment that you , I , and everybody deserves.

So again, yes genocide is wrong because it is the murder of innocent people. As humans, we do not possess the authority to take life. God is the ultimate judge and therefore his punishment of those nations was justifiable.

I don't expect you accept this response, but that is the truth if God exists.

If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

"Personhood" is also a legal term. Legally, corporations are people. The term is meaningless in this context. "Personhood" is granted by law, (or the states arguing this would not be arguing it).

The innocent women and children in the massive "punishment events" in the Bible did nothing wrong. They were also MASSIVE amount of innocents, killed by your god. Your genocidal god. The only thing they did wrong was be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If "evil in their midst" is the criteria, then I guess YOU are up for extermination, even if YOU have done nothing wrong. Give me a break. This is laughable.
If you hold to the presuppositions that God exists and that he is the ultimate moral authority, then such a conclusion is far from laughable. In the atheist worldview however, words such as innocent and guilty become ultimately meaningless. According to the atheist worldview, no real God told the Israelites to destroy any nations. It was simply people killing people. Survival of the fittest, no right or wrong. Yet the moral outcry from atheists is curiously great and greatly unfounded.

I have done things wrong. I deserve death and destruction, but I have placed my faith in the sufficiency of Christ, and therefore I have hope of resurrection and eternal life.
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21-08-2012, 03:28 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Quote:I have done things wrong. I deserve death and destruction, but I have placed my faith in the sufficiency of Christ, and therefore I have hope of resurrection and eternal life.

I am sorry, but it simply is not justified that you deserve death and destruction unless what you did fits certain criteria.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Search up Genetic Altruism, or do I have to link you to the evidence myself?

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21-08-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
I just love it when a complete stranger defines my world view for me. It gives me confidence that I am speaking with someone who makes the choice to think instead of stereotyping based on their own, uninformed conclusions.

Sigh.

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21-08-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:25 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If you hold to the presuppositions that God exists and that he is the ultimate moral authority, then such a conclusion is far from laughable. In the atheist worldview however, words such as innocent and guilty become ultimately meaningless. According to the atheist worldview, no real God told the Israelites to destroy any nations. It was simply people killing people.
Atheist worldview? Are you the second Egor or what? Laughat

(21-08-2012 03:25 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Survival of the fittest, no right or wrong. Yet the moral outcry from atheists is curiously great and greatly unfounded.
You never do your research, do you?

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21-08-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:19 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Yes, but the flying spaghetti monster is also above science and the natural world. This is true because it is written (see previous sentence for proof).

So now you have as much proof that FSM is the one true god as you do that the god of the bible is.

And yes, I do realize that my reasoning is full of holes, but no more than yours. Atheist yet?

I was answering in response to why we should believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to the polytheistic beliefs of the ancient world. There are reasons I believe God exists outside of Scriptural text. I know Christians are often stereotyped for what they believe, but please try not to commit the strawman fallacy.
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21-08-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:25 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If you hold to the presuppositions that God exists and that he is the ultimate moral authority, then such a conclusion is far from laughable. In the atheist worldview however, words such as innocent and guilty become ultimately meaningless. According to the atheist worldview, no real God told the Israelites to destroy any nations. It was simply people killing people. Survival of the fittest, no right or wrong. Yet the moral outcry from atheists is curiously great and greatly unfounded.

I have done things wrong. I deserve death and destruction, but I have placed my faith in the sufficiency of Christ, and therefore I have hope of resurrection and eternal life.

It is laughable in either case, as your god killed so many innocent people, with no accounting of individual innocence. Were all those babies guilty ? Was that your "moral authority" ? THAT is laughable. Innocent and guilty are not meaningless. Have YOU never seen Plato's Euthyphro's Dillema ?
Gods are not the source of morality. The Platonic Conundrum, (rewritten by Bucky).
1. Something is wrong, because god says it's wrong.
2. Why did god say it's wrong ?
3. Did he have a good reason ?
4. If there is no good reason, then it could be right.
If there is a good reason, that reason exists, apart from god.
5. Could he have said it's right ?
If he could not say it's right, then truth and moral value exist apart from god.
6. Is it wrong because god says it's wrong, or is it wrong, because it's objectively wrong, and god had to say that ?
7. Would it be right if god says it's right ?
If god could not have said it's right, and still be god, then the source of the moral law is not god.
If it would still be wrong even if god says it's right, then the source of morality is not god.
If the source of morality is not god, then we must look elsewhere for guidance.

Even if your god exists, I just proved she is not the source of morality.
Does Kingsy's baby girl deserve death ? Does his son deserve death ?
YOUR god killed thousands of innocent children.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:25 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Survival of the fittest, no right or wrong. Yet the moral outcry from atheists is curiously great and greatly unfounded.
You never do your research, do you?

I am familiar with this concept. I don't see how that provides a truly objective basis for morality.
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21-08-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:29 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:19 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Yes, but the flying spaghetti monster is also above science and the natural world. This is true because it is written (see previous sentence for proof).

So now you have as much proof that FSM is the one true god as you do that the god of the bible is.

And yes, I do realize that my reasoning is full of holes, but no more than yours. Atheist yet?

I was answering in response to why we should believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to the polytheistic beliefs of the ancient world. There are reasons I believe God exists outside of Scriptural text. I know Christians are often stereotyped for what they believe, but please try not to commit the strawman fallacy.

No stereotyping there at all. I just provided you with the same amount of evidence that you have for your god. If you have more, please feel free to share. What are these reasons you have for believing outside of the scriptural texts?

Oh, and when you provide your answer, please don't commit any logical fallacies, k?

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21-08-2012, 03:35 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:25 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I have done things wrong. I deserve death and destruction, but I have placed my faith in the sufficiency of Christ, and therefore I have hope of resurrection and eternal life.

... Yeah, go with the self hate. It's a good tool for the Church 'cos who the hell doesn't hate themselves at times? And they've got a nice big carrot to wave at you too Smile Just do the magic ritual and you will not *die*. Your body will stop moving but you will live on... Someone out there *loves* you, regardless of your low self opinion...

Empty lies... platitudes... and the cost? Nothing except your entire life. You must *spread* the belief. Because the ritual only works if you believe. And there's another daily dose of good healthy fear for you. Because there is the worm of doubt. Do I really believe strongly enough? Am I lying to myself? Will I really be saved, or are these doubts my true feelings, will I actually end up going to hell? I must believe harder. If I look behind, if I dare to let the doubt in... I will be overwhelmed... and turn into an atheist.

Oh wait I am one Big Grin Toodle-ooo Big Grin
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21-08-2012, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 03:41 PM by Vosur.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:32 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I am familiar with this concept. I don't see how that provides a truly objective basis for morality.
So, I was right about you sharing the same belief as WLC. Consider

You do realize that there is no objective basis for morality either way, do you? The moral rules outlined in the Bible are subject to change (OT) and subject to one's interpretation. We have an example right here. KC thinks that homosexuality is completely fine, whereas you claim that it is sinful.

Regardless of that, you claimed that the moral outcry was "greatly unfounded", which it isn't. Furthermore, the subject of debate was not objective morality, but morality in general.

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