A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:25 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If you hold to the presuppositions that God exists and that he is the ultimate moral authority, then such a conclusion is far from laughable. In the atheist worldview however, words such as innocent and guilty become ultimately meaningless. According to the atheist worldview, no real God told the Israelites to destroy any nations. It was simply people killing people. Survival of the fittest, no right or wrong. Yet the moral outcry from atheists is curiously great and greatly unfounded.

I have done things wrong. I deserve death and destruction, but I have placed my faith in the sufficiency of Christ, and therefore I have hope of resurrection and eternal life.

It is laughable in either case, as your god killed so many innocent people, with no accounting of individual innocence. Were all those babies guilty ? Was that your "moral authority" ? THAT is laughable. Innocent and guilty are not meaningless. Have YOU never seen Plato's Euthyphro's Dillema ?
Gods are not the source of morality. The Platonic Conundrum, (rewritten by Bucky).
1. Something is wrong, because god says it's wrong.
2. Why did god say it's wrong ?
3. Did he have a good reason ?
4. If there is no good reason, then it could be right.
If there is a good reason, that reason exists, apart from god.
5. Could he have said it's right ?
If he could not say it's right, then truth and moral value exist apart from god.
6. Is it wrong because god says it's wrong, or is it wrong, because it's objectively wrong, and god had to say that ?
7. Would it be right if god says it's right ?
If god could not have said it's right, and still be god, then the source of the moral law is not god.
If it would still be wrong even if god says it's right, then the source of morality is not god.
If the source of morality is not god, then we must look elsewhere for guidance.

Even if your god exists, I just proved she is not the source of morality.
Does Kingsy's baby girl deserve death ? Does his son deserve death ?
YOUR god killed thousands of innocent children.
Moral goodness is an innate quality of God. It is part of his character, just as He is all-just and all-merciful. Therefore I don't see the necessity for a separation between God's decree and actual moral goodness.
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21-08-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:03 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  ....Therefore, let's not muddy the waters here. Let's look at what proof there is for the existence of God and the case for Christianity.
Short version:
I did--there isn't any proof, and the case is laughable--same as with every other religion.


Longer version:
There's evidence that says it's a collection of stories similar to any other fictional ones (said by the religious, as, well they did take a whole bunch of text, vote, and discard things "not god approved" or as I have heard said "it wasn't as popular"). Evidence that says things that happened in the bible didn't happen. Links to the bible and other stories that pre-date its writings, leading to a "the writers all-but plagiarized prior stories". Actual observable things that people with eyes can see where it's wrong.... so then the bible becomes a "parable" or "metaphor" with the principals behind it being true--which makes no sense in itself, "everything is a metaphor because we know it has to be false, but everything else is true because it says so". Items in the bible that "don't apply" now go from being "gods word" to "it was society/acceptable in the context of the time" (ex: anything old testament that the people want to do). There's not even agreement on the ten commandments as to what was really meant, or what the "real" ten commandments are. Even marriage and women... "traditional marriage" would be men selling their daughters for wealth, property and power--"traditional marriage" for love is a modern thing, and not even done everywhere as arranged marriages still exist.

I'd even say that god being a space-less and timeless being is a modern thing as well--because we explored all the places the ancient people thought he existed. At least other religions have a physical being that people know existed. Christianity has no being that can be touched, seen, tasted, tested, or anything. There's not even proof jesus lived or died. The proof for christianity is there is no proof, therefore it must be true.

Even more, jesus wasn't born on the day said in the bible (I can't remember where--but even theologians have said the bible places it closer to summer for birth). So think about it, the people, back when all this was going on, miracles all over, dead rising from the grave, people spreading the news to everyone of "god's real and he did this!!!" and christians had to piggyback their holidays on others so people would switch (or switch easier--I don't think therer's consensus on the reason shy of they took over others holidays). Yeah.... proof of god at the time, and people still had to be bribed. God was speaking to the only people on earth. He was all in their face--but people turned away? God wiped out people and started again.... all of humanity owed their lives to the god that got all in their face and they turned away?

Granted I'm heading out (have tests for class, and class is about an hour away), so hopefully that at least makes some sense...
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21-08-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:37 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It is laughable in either case, as your god killed so many innocent people, with no accounting of individual innocence. Were all those babies guilty ? Was that your "moral authority" ? THAT is laughable. Innocent and guilty are not meaningless. Have YOU never seen Plato's Euthyphro's Dillema ?
Gods are not the source of morality. The Platonic Conundrum, (rewritten by Bucky).
1. Something is wrong, because god says it's wrong.
2. Why did god say it's wrong ?
3. Did he have a good reason ?
4. If there is no good reason, then it could be right.
If there is a good reason, that reason exists, apart from god.
5. Could he have said it's right ?
If he could not say it's right, then truth and moral value exist apart from god.
6. Is it wrong because god says it's wrong, or is it wrong, because it's objectively wrong, and god had to say that ?
7. Would it be right if god says it's right ?
If god could not have said it's right, and still be god, then the source of the moral law is not god.
If it would still be wrong even if god says it's right, then the source of morality is not god.
If the source of morality is not god, then we must look elsewhere for guidance.

Even if your god exists, I just proved she is not the source of morality.
Does Kingsy's baby girl deserve death ? Does his son deserve death ?
YOUR god killed thousands of innocent children.
Moral goodness is an innate quality of God. It is part of his character, just as He is all-just and all-merciful. Therefore I don't see the necessity for a separation between God's decree and actual moral goodness.
Seriously? Oh well. I guess reason and sound logic are off the table.

On that note, I'm out. Someone lemme know if this gets back to reasonable debate.

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21-08-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:34 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:29 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I was answering in response to why we should believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to the polytheistic beliefs of the ancient world. There are reasons I believe God exists outside of Scriptural text. I know Christians are often stereotyped for what they believe, but please try not to commit the strawman fallacy.

No stereotyping there at all. I just provided you with the same amount of evidence that you have for your god. If you have more, please feel free to share. What are these reasons you have for believing outside of the scriptural texts?

Oh, and when you provide your answer, please don't commit any logical fallacies, k?

There are many people asking me questions, so I just be brief on a topic that deserves more attention. I believe in God because there must be non-contigent cause of the universe (Cosmological argument.) I believe in God because of the fine tuning of the universe and the marks of intelligent design found within the creation(Teleological argument). I believe in God because the existence of objective moral truths which if founded within human evolution is purely subjective.

That's it in a nutshell.
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21-08-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:36 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:32 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I am familiar with this concept. I don't see how that provides a truly objective basis for morality.
So, I was right about you sharing the same belief as WLC. Consider

You do realize that there is no objective basis for morality either way, do you? The moral rules outlined in the Bible are subject to change (OT) and subject to one's interpretation. We have an example right here. KC thinks that homosexuality is completely fine, whereas you claim that it is sinful.

Well, I don't think it's completely fine - I still believe it's a sin; however, I believe that people are born gay and God controls sin because He created it and controls all.

The way I differ is my acceptance that homosexuals can't control being born gay and that is up to God for judgment.

Whether or not a person will be judged for being gay I don't know nor do I care. That's not a concern of mine... all of that is up to God.

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21-08-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:34 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  No stereotyping there at all. I just provided you with the same amount of evidence that you have for your god. If you have more, please feel free to share. What are these reasons you have for believing outside of the scriptural texts?

Oh, and when you provide your answer, please don't commit any logical fallacies, k?

There are many people asking me questions, so I just be brief on a topic that deserves more attention. I believe in God because there must be non-contigent cause of the universe (Cosmological argument.) I believe in God because of the fine tuning of the universe and the marks of intelligent design found within the creation(Teleological argument). I believe in God because the existence of objective moral truths which if founded within human evolution is purely subjective.

That's it in a nutshell.


Fine tuning? So.... your god isn't all powerful?
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21-08-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:43 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:37 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Moral goodness is an innate quality of God. It is part of his character, just as He is all-just and all-merciful. Therefore I don't see the necessity for a separation between God's decree and actual moral goodness.
Seriously? Oh well. I guess reason and sound logic are off the table.

On that note, I'm out. Someone lemme know if this gets back to reasonable debate.

Show me how that is illogical.
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21-08-2012, 03:46 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:44 PM)elemts Wrote:  Fine tuning? So.... your god isn't all powerful?
How did you come to that conclusion?
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21-08-2012, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 03:52 PM by Vosur.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  There are many people asking me questions, so I just be brief on a topic that deserves more attention. I believe in God because there must be non-contigent cause of the universe (Cosmological argument.) I believe in God because of the fine tuning of the universe and the marks of intelligent design found within the creation(Teleological argument). I believe in God because the existence of objective moral truths which if founded within human evolution is purely subjective.

That's it in a nutshell.
Hahaha! Cosmological argument, teological argument, Intelligent Design, argument from morality? Have you ever read any counter arguments to your position ever?

You'd make for a good apologist. Yes

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21-08-2012, 03:48 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well, I don't think it's completely fine - I still believe it's a sin; however, I believe that people are born gay and God controls sin because He created it and controls all.

The way I differ is my acceptance that homosexuals can't control being born gay and that is up to God for judgment.

Whether or not a person will be judged for being gay I don't know nor do I care. That's not a concern of mine... all of that is up to God.
I believe that people can naturally has a predisposition towards being, but that some also reach there by chosen perversion. A person can be gay and be a Christian. He simply cannot participate in homosexual acts which are sinful.
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