A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 05:43 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 05:17 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 05:13 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  No, I believe boring was the right word.

Theists debating with each other is like two children debating about which one of their action figures is better.

"Oh yeah, well mine has a shield!"

"But mine has a rocket that can break through your shield!"

Are you telling me that whether or not Optimus Prime could defeat all of Cobra by himself isn't a legitimate debate?

Pffft, whatever dude.

Agreeing with me when I liken your deity to something as meaningless as an action figure. Classy. So how's that predestination working out for you?


(21-08-2012 03:44 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:43 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Seriously? Oh well. I guess reason and sound logic are off the table.

On that note, I'm out. Someone lemme know if this gets back to reasonable debate.

Show me how that is illogical.

I invite you to educate yourself. It isn't hard. The internet is where religions go to die.

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21-08-2012, 06:05 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 06:09 PM by DLJ.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
I wish I had stayed awake. So much to play with, here.

And now I'm rushing off to preach to my flock so apologies if I'm repeating anything covered on the 5 pages I haven't read yet.

“I'm fine with giving them benefits as well”

So generous of you.
Imagine a world where gays are in the majority (San Fran?) and someone says that about your kind... how does that feel?

“…it would mean that you led me from the darkness into the light.”

Got something against darkness? That’s soooo photonist!

“Everyone has a worldview that they think is the truth and so of course they will teach what they believe to be true.”

Wrong, not everyone has a worldview (unless this (from Ghandi) can be considered a worldview “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.”)
Some (I speak as a trainer), will teach people to think for themselves. Teach the process (which also evolves) not the outcome.

“The universe began to exist, everything that begins to exist has a cause. Theists believe God is that cause”

Some do. Some think “gods” are the cause. More accurately (as you said before), this is a Deist position. The leap to the Theist position (i.e. that their gods actually give a shit) is … well … a leap.

“I would advise everyone to not read into what I wrote too much.”

This, I like. Please start all future sermons this way too.

(21-08-2012 03:03 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 06:46 AM)DLJ Wrote:  What incentive is there for your future flock to believe what you tell them?

What penalty is there if they choose not to believe it?
If my flock believes the Gospel, they will receive eternal life by placing their faith in Jesus Christ. If they do not, they will receive what we all deserve which is destruction. The real question though, is what I am telling them true? Just because believing what I say has good benefits, does not say anything about the actual truthfulness of that belief. To say that would be to commit the genetic fallacy.
If you told me that if I walked to store down the street I would get a free burger, but if I didn't I would remain hungry, the truthfulness of what you told me would not be dependent on whether I thought the supposed consequences of following what you said would be swell. It depends wholly on whether there are actually free burgers down the street, and what proof we have that might indicate that this is true. In the same way, the truth of the Gospel is not dependent on its appeal but on its actual correspondence with the true nature of things. Therefore, let's not muddy the waters here. Let's look at what proof there is for the existence of God and the case for Christianity.

Excellent. Please end all your sermons with...
"and children, please do not be frightened. Decide upon the evidence using your critical-thinking skills as to the truth of what I say. Do not trust mere Faith, Authority, Revelation or Tradition. If you do not believe the Gospel, which I have already said cannot be taken literally, you have nothing to fear."

Here endeth the lesson.

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21-08-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

OUCH!

What a horrible way to see the world.

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21-08-2012, 06:48 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 06:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

OUCH!

What a horrible way to see the world.

And since God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide, really fucking inconsistent, too. Shocking

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2012, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 07:19 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  The question is what caused the big bang. How can nothing cause anything to happen?
The universe began to exist, everything that begins to exist has a cause. Theists believe God is that cause because the nature of God is that he has always existed and is therefore a non-contigent being. Any other conclusion would simply leave with you saying something came from absolutely nothing, or that there is an infinite amount of universes which is a physical impossibility.

The question is, what do you mean by nothing. Immediately after the Big Bang, there were approximately equal amounts of matter and antimatter. (1+-1)=0. Is that "something ? Is nothing something ?
Gravity can have a negative value. The total energy of the universe is still 0, (zero). Is "zero", nothing or something ?
Of all the trillions of possible causes for the universe, why would you "light" on your god ? How do you know the cause of this universe was not a robot, acting on digital orders from a zombie from the third universe over ? How do you know there are not an infinite number of universes ? I hope you're not going on that trick Craig pulls to define "infinite", because no mathmetician agrees with that crap.
If the universe began to exist, then spacetime began when this universe began. If that is true, then how did your god "begin" to act, or exist, or "do" anything, "before" this universe existed ?
The universe is not "fine tuned" ? If you think it's "fine tuned", why is most of our genetic material "junk", why do kids die from genetic diseases, and cancers every day ? Is THAT "fine tuned" ? Why, of all the time the universe will exist, will life exist, to 80 decimal points, "0" (zero), amount of the time the universe will exist. Is THAT "fine tuned" for life. In fact THAT is it's complete opposite.

BTW, with respect to you "genocide" comment. I already exterminated all the races of humans I need to. Without your god, you said you will be exterminating. Did you want to give the race you think you need to exterminate a heads-up ?

We've been here, done this, many times.
So I have a little set of references ready for your perusal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUawGws4T...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlD-CJPGt...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtmbcfb_rdc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYphAH2tK...re=related ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-UIfkcg...re=related , http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007 , http://evolutionofdna.com/Evolution-Of-DNA.html , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC148579/ , http://www.dnafiles.org/node/551 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/probability-life , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/fiv...-evolution , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/videos/carl-sagan-evolution ,
http://www.evolutionfaq.com/videos/evolution-eye , http://video.pbs.org/video/1300397304 , http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/ ,
http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-probability.pdf , http://www.science20.com/philosophical_s...nd_fallacy ,
http://www.science20.com/stars_planets_l...gin_chance , http://www.science20.com/science_20/evolution_evolution .

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 07:09 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's not what the Bible says.

It says God created sin.

Also, how can you be reformed and believe in a choice?
Interesting...can you show me in Scripture where it says that?

I think the idea that Calvinists do not believe in choice is a misconception.
The world is not so black and white deterministic.
God gave man free will in order that a true love relationship could be formed between man and God. Without free will, this would be impossible because love is chosen.
Without choice, I do not see how man could be held responsible for the fall.

God did not create evil. Evil is not a thing. Evil is like a shadow. A shadow is the absence of light. In the same way, evil is absence of good. Therefore God gave man a free will and he chose to disobey God's commandments, that which is good, resulting in evil.


PS I apologize if I don't respond to some of you. There are many questions being asked, and it's hard to keep up with all of them.
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21-08-2012, 07:11 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  How can nothing cause anything to happen?

That's an argument from ignorance and is invalid.


(21-08-2012 02:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  The universe began to exist, everything that begins to exist has a cause.

I don't accept your claim. We don't know that everything has a cause.

(21-08-2012 02:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Theists believe God is that cause because the nature of God is that he has always existed and is therefore a non-contigent being.

Your argument is self-contradicting. If everything that begins to exist has a cause, and god doesn't have a cause, then god must have never begun to exist. If he never begain to exist, then he doesn't exist.

Or, if you're trying to be cute, and say that he never had a beginning because he's eternal, then the same could be said for the universe, in which case no creator is possible because no creator could have preceded it.

The non-contingent being is a special pleading and won't be accepted here. How many constructs have to be invented to prop up your god argument?

(21-08-2012 02:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Any other conclusion would simply leave with you saying something came from absolutely nothing, or that there is an infinite amount of universes which is a physical impossibility.

We don't know what absolute nothing is, therefore your claim is invalid. How can you be pushing a supernatural being and then in the next sentence talk about physical impossibilities? You're changing your frame of reference from sentence to sentence.
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21-08-2012, 07:12 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Allow me to sing the song of YOUR PEOPLE:


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

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21-08-2012, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 07:21 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 06:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 02:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.

OUCH!

What a horrible way to see the world.

It is, isn't it. Not having sturdy foundations which can survive the loss and inevitable modifications of one's beliefs means they are building a house upon the sand. Shocking

I think that the unforgivable sin of religion is that instead of recognizing, embracing and fostering the inherent empathy our species has evolved to, most, but not all, try to co-opt it and then add further restrictions and enrollment requirements. ... It's disingenuous at best, and malevolent at worst. ... Fuck them.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-08-2012, 07:22 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Nobody knows nothing about nothing. Big Grin

Except for me, of course. I know everything about nothing and nothing about everything. There ain't no knowledge about the universe that exists; there's I, what I remember, what I learn. What I ain't learning is why someone obsessed with causality would study theology rather than astrophysics...Dodgy

Besides, Gwyneth Paltrow created the universe, cause I'm here commenting on it, as an indirect representation of love for my Gwynnies, cause the direct kind - is prolly a felony. Big Grin

In other words, there is no creation without space in which to create. It's not about something coming from nothing, but rather, everything coming from nothing. Like this post. Thumbsup

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