A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 07:26 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 02:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  The question is what caused the big bang. How can nothing cause anything to happen?
The universe began to exist, everything that begins to exist has a cause. Theists believe God is that cause because the nature of God is that he has always existed and is therefore a non-contigent being. Any other conclusion would simply leave with you saying something came from absolutely nothing, or that there is an infinite amount of universes which is a physical impossibility.

The question is, what do you mean by nothing. Immediately after the Big Bang, there were approximately equal amounts of matter and antimatter. (1+-1)=0. Is that "something ? Is nothing something ?
Gravity can have a negative value. The total energy of the universe is still 0, (zero). Is "zero", nothing or something ?
Of all the trillions of possible causes for the universe, why would you "light" on your god ? How do you know the cause of this universe was not a robot, acting on digital orders from a zombie from the third universe over ? How do you know there are not an infinite number of universes ? I hope you're not going on that trick Craig pulls to define "infinite", because no mathmetician agrees with that crap.
If the universe began to exist, then spacetime began when this universe began. If that is true, then how did your god "begin" to act, or exist, or "do" anything, "before" this universe existed ?
The universe is not "fine tuned" ? If you think it's "fine tuned", why is most of our genetic material "junk", why do kids die from genetic diseases, and cancers every day ? Is THAT "fine tuned" ? Why, of all the time the universe will exist, will life exist, to 80 decimal points, "0" (zero), amount of the time the universe will exist. Is THAT "fine tuned" for life. In fact THAT is it's complete opposite.

BTW, with respect to you "genocide" comment. I already exteminated all the races of humans I need to. Without your god, you said you will be exterminating. Did you want to give the race you think you need to exterminate a heads-up ?

We've been here, done this, many times.
So I have a little set of references ready for your perusal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUawGws4T...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlD-CJPGt...re=related , see below, (Debzilla) "god of the gaps" .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtmbcfb_rdc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYphAH2tK...re=related ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-UIfkcg...re=related , http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007 , http://evolutionofdna.com/Evolution-Of-DNA.html , http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC148579/ , http://www.dnafiles.org/node/551 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/probability-life , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/fiv...-evolution , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/videos/carl-sagan-evolution ,
http://www.evolutionfaq.com/videos/evolution-eye , http://video.pbs.org/video/1300397304 , http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/ ,
http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-probability.pdf , http://www.science20.com/philosophical_s...nd_fallacy ,
http://www.science20.com/stars_planets_l...gin_chance , http://www.science20.com/science_20/evolution_evolution .
All of that "nothing" is actually something. Gravity is something. Laws are something. Nothing is nothing. Genetic diseases I believe are due to the fall of man. Take it or leave it, that's my explanation. In the return of Christ, believers are promised new physical bodies.

As for the infinite, the infinite is definitely possibly in the abstract world of mathematics. Yet, have you ever been to hotel with an infinite amount of rooms? The infinite is simply not possible within the physical realm. The very nature of infinity defies the quantifiable nature of the physical universe.

Time is simply a measurement within the physical universe. God exists outside of the physical universe and created it, so why would it be necessary for him to act within that which he created? Doesn't that just box-in the Creator?

Video game characters need electronics and programming to come to life on the screen. While it is true that those things are essential for their actions to take place, such is not the case with the creator of that game. His existence and functioning is not dependent on the laws of video game realm. He doesn't press x or square to do anything. He creates in a completely different way. Such is the case with creator of the universe. So to ask me how is an impossible question. The laws of the physical universe are insufficient to explain how he created ex nihilo.
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21-08-2012, 07:28 PM
A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:13 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:12 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Hey TP,
Since the feeding frenzy has begun, I'll throw out some more chum:

If you were born in Iran instead of America, what religion would you believe to be the one true Truth?

Probably Islam.

So it seems you must be able to see that what a person believes to be the Truth is heavily influenced by the important people around you.

Why should we accept your view of god over that of a devout and sincerely practicing Muslim?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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21-08-2012, 07:37 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 07:44 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:09 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's not what the Bible says.

It says God created sin.

Also, how can you be reformed and believe in a choice?
Interesting...can you show me in Scripture where it says that?

I think the idea that Calvinists do not believe in choice is a misconception.
The world is not so black and white deterministic.
God gave man free will in order that a true love relationship could be formed between man and God. Without free will, this would be impossible because love is chosen.
Without choice, I do not see how man could be held responsible for the fall.

God did not create evil. Evil is not a thing. Evil is like a shadow. A shadow is the absence of light. In the same way, evil is absence of good. Therefore God gave man a free will and he chose to disobey God's commandments, that which is good, resulting in evil.


PS I apologize if I don't respond to some of you. There are many questions being asked, and it's hard to keep up with all of them.

So, you believe in a type of conditional election or a type of synergy with God. You don't believe in unconditional election.

My problem with your view is that it places restrictions on God. God is subjugated to free will... moreover, a human's free will. I think this is an affront to his omnipotence. If God is God then nothing can ever influence anything that has happened or will ever happen. We can have any type of choice even down to the smallest minutia. If we did, then God wouldn't be all powerful.

I'm not sure if you fully understand the concept of election and the magnitude of reformed theology. You say you believe in election and free will, which, I'm assuming you see election only as far as salvation goes and not in other things. Like I said above, you limit God's powers and subjugated God to our choices and actions no matter how small.

Man is not responsible for the fall. Man was already created as a sinful being. If man was created perfect, then he could not sin. Perfection cannot choose imperfection, if it could, then it was never perfect. Even if you say man had the propensity to sin, then that means that man wasn't perfect and was created sinful because of the aforementioned.

As far as the evil thing:

Lamentations 3:38
38 From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the evils and the good.

Isaiah 45:7
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

These are the most accurate translations of the verses. Look at the Hebrew as well. There is no getting around the word. Modern translations have toned down the language, unfortunately.

Evil is a "thing" as it says God is creating it.

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21-08-2012, 07:40 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:28 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 03:13 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Probably Islam.

So it seems you must be able to see that what a person believes to be the Truth is heavily influenced by the important people around you.

Why should we accept your view of god over that of a devout and sincerely practicing Muslim?
What's at issue here is not how one came to believe something, but what it is you actually believe. People in America believe the world is spherical. An unreached people believe the world is on the top of a turtles back. Both are sincere beliefs, which should we believe? The one that is supported by the most evidence. We must look at the facts. Therefore you should accept Christianity over Islam because Christianity has more evidence for its truthfulness than Islam. (I realize this final statement requires a look at this evidence, but I am simply stating this as the reason to believe one thing over another.)
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21-08-2012, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 10:24 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:26 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  All of that "nothing" is actually something. Gravity is something. Laws are something. Nothing is nothing. Genetic diseases I believe are due to the fall of man. Take it or leave it, that's my explanation. In the return of Christ, believers are promised new physical bodies.

As for the infinite, the infinite is definitely possibly in the abstract world of mathematics. Yet, have you ever been to hotel with an infinite amount of rooms? The infinite is simply not possible within the physical realm. The very nature of infinity defies the quantifiable nature of the physical universe.

Time is simply a measurement within the physical universe. God exists outside of the physical universe and created it, so why would it be necessary for him to act within that which he created? Doesn't that just box-in the Creator?

Video game characters need electronics and programming to come to life on the screen. While it is true that those things are essential for their actions to take place, such is not the case with the creator of that game. His existence and functioning is not dependent on the laws of video game realm. He doesn't press x or square to do anything. He creates in a completely different way. Such is the case with creator of the universe. So to ask me how is an impossible question. The laws of the physical universe are insufficient to explain how he created ex nihilo.

Since you have no evidence for what the conditions were, at or before, (if that even makes sense), the Big Bang, you cannot assert that "something came from nothing". You simply don't know. I asked you "does the TOTAL ENERGY of the universe, (which sums to ZERO), equal something, or nothing ?". You have not answered the question. Saying "gravity is "something" is only part of one side of the equation. And if Gravity has a negative value, (which it can), is THAT "something" ?

You cannot possibly think, that with on-going Evolution, genetic diseases came into existence on the planet Earth, only *after* Adam sinned ? I'm sure there is evidence to prove that is false.

Why would you think humans are promised new physical bodies ? Jesus didn't get one. He walked through walls, and did not eat, and did not sleep, and ascended to heaven, and at least once, (the Road to Emmaus), was not recognized by his followers. THAT is not a "physical body". (It may be a zombie body), but it's NOT a "physical body.

Einstein proved that space and time are intimately connected. There is no space without time. Saying god exists "outside", (a spatial concept), something, is a meaningless statement. I asked you before to give us ONE property of your god which does not require spacetime. We're still waiting.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 07:50 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
I have some questions.

knowing that:

  1. God is all-knowing, he knows past present and future
  2. God is all-mighty/powerful
  3. God is perfect

Before creating Adam and Eve he knew they will sin?

If he created us as imperfect beings, Why did he make the prohibition of eating from that apple tree (eventually had to happen that they eated from it)?

Knowing the imperfections he imposed on us, knowing they will fail to keep away from the tree, he even allowed the devil to motivate them to eat the forbidden fruit. Why?

Why the hell should I be responsible from what someone else did?

if your faith can move mountains it should be able to withstand criticism
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21-08-2012, 07:57 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
There are no gods.
The story of the "fall" was taken from Sumerian Choas myths, and has nothing to do with eating apples.
God did not "act". The very idea of a god acting refutes his eternal/timeless nature.
Don't worry about it.
Carry on. Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 07:59 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are no gods.
The story of the "fall" was taken from Sumerian Choas myths, and has nothing to do with eating apples.
God did not "act". The very idea of a god acting refutes his eternal/timeless nature.
Don't worry about it.
Carry on. Thumbsup

a said all that "asuming" it is all truth, wich I suspect TrueReason to believe so, son he can answer and tell me....why?

I dont actually believe in that story, btw

if your faith can move mountains it should be able to withstand criticism
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21-08-2012, 09:24 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:50 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  I have some questions.

knowing that:

  1. God is all-knowing, he knows past present and future
  2. God is all-mighty/powerful
  3. God is perfect

Before creating Adam and Eve he knew they will sin?

If he created us as imperfect beings, Why did he make the prohibition of eating from that apple tree (eventually had to happen that they eated from it)?

Knowing the imperfections he imposed on us, knowing they will fail to keep away from the tree, he even allowed the devil to motivate them to eat the forbidden fruit. Why?

Why the hell should I be responsible from what someone else did?

You are not knowing, you are assuming.

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21-08-2012, 09:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 09:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist










If you are unbiased, you have to admit, that there is just as good evidence, in fact better evidence, that the Salem witches, actually WERE witches, than there is for the resurrection of Jeebus.




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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