A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 10:00 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 07:26 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  All of that "nothing" is actually something. Gravity is something. Laws are something. Nothing is nothing. Genetic diseases I believe are due to the fall of man. Take it or leave it, that's my explanation. In the return of Christ, believers are promised new physical bodies.

As for the infinite, the infinite is definitely possibly in the abstract world of mathematics. Yet, have you ever been to hotel with an infinite amount of rooms? The infinite is simply not possible within the physical realm. The very nature of infinity defies the quantifiable nature of the physical universe.

Time is simply a measurement within the physical universe. God exists outside of the physical universe and created it, so why would it be necessary for him to act within that which he created? Doesn't that just box-in the Creator?

Video game characters need electronics and programming to come to life on the screen. While it is true that those things are essential for their actions to take place, such is not the case with the creator of that game. His existence and functioning is not dependent on the laws of video game realm. He doesn't press x or square to do anything. He creates in a completely different way. Such is the case with creator of the universe. So to ask me how is an impossible question. The laws of the physical universe are insufficient to explain how he created ex nihilo.

Since you have no evidence for what the conditions were, at or before, (if that even makes sense), the Big Bang, you cannot assert that "something came from nothing". You simply don't know. I asked you "does the TOTAL ENERGY of the universe, (which sums to ZERO), equal something, or nothing ?". You have not answered the question. Saying "gravity is "something" is only part of one side of the equation. And if Gravity has a negative value, (which it can), is THAT "something" ?

You cannot possibly think, that with on-going Evolution, genetic diseases came into existence on the planet Earth, only *after* Adam sinned ? I'm sure there is evidence to prove that is false.

Why would you think humans are promised new physical bodies ? Jesus didn't get one. He walked through walls, and did not eat, and did not sleep, and ascended to heaven, and at least once, (the Road to Emmaus), was not recognized by his followers. THAT is not a "physical body". (It may be a zombie body), but it's NOT a "physical body.

Einstein proved that space and time are intimately connected. There is no space without time. Saying god exists "outside", (a spacial concept), something, is a meaningless statement. I asked you before to give us ONE property of your god which does not require spacetime. We're still waiting.
The spiritual property. As I told you, God's existence is not bound to the physical. He exists in a different realm. Einstein's theories can only apply to the physical universe, not to the spiritual realm. Trying to describe God and how he operates with physical laws and properties is like trying to weigh a chicken with ruler. The measurements are simply not the same.
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21-08-2012, 10:10 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:50 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  I have some questions.

knowing that:

  1. God is all-knowing, he knows past present and future
  2. God is all-mighty/powerful
  3. God is perfect

Before creating Adam and Eve he knew they will sin?

If he created us as imperfect beings, Why did he make the prohibition of eating from that apple tree (eventually had to happen that they eated from it)?

Knowing the imperfections he imposed on us, knowing they will fail to keep away from the tree, he even allowed the devil to motivate them to eat the forbidden fruit. Why?

Why the hell should I be responsible from what someone else did?
God created humans despite the fact that he knew they would fall, their free will would result ultimate good which is a relationship with good. God didn't want robots. He wanted autonomous agents to be in relation with. That involved allowing for the possibility that man would fall. God valued this choice so much that he even allowed Satan to tempt them. He wanted them to really choose him, and not have it be simply some default function.

Why are you responsible?Well, every action has it consequences. Choices made by our parents, and even by ancestors from previous generations have an effect on us today. As the representatives of mankind, Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, and thus they brought on the curse. Individually we all choose to rebel against. Therefore there is a individual and corporate responsibility for our rebellion.

If you don't accept the presuppositions of Christian belief, it will be difficult to accept this explanation. I'm assuming you don't even believe in God, so it would be extremely difficult, but that's the explanation.
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21-08-2012, 10:12 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:00 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 07:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Since you have no evidence for what the conditions were, at or before, (if that even makes sense), the Big Bang, you cannot assert that "something came from nothing". You simply don't know. I asked you "does the TOTAL ENERGY of the universe, (which sums to ZERO), equal something, or nothing ?". You have not answered the question. Saying "gravity is "something" is only part of one side of the equation. And if Gravity has a negative value, (which it can), is THAT "something" ?

You cannot possibly think, that with on-going Evolution, genetic diseases came into existence on the planet Earth, only *after* Adam sinned ? I'm sure there is evidence to prove that is false.

Why would you think humans are promised new physical bodies ? Jesus didn't get one. He walked through walls, and did not eat, and did not sleep, and ascended to heaven, and at least once, (the Road to Emmaus), was not recognized by his followers. THAT is not a "physical body". (It may be a zombie body), but it's NOT a "physical body.

Einstein proved that space and time are intimately connected. There is no space without time. Saying god exists "outside", (a spacial concept), something, is a meaningless statement. I asked you before to give us ONE property of your god which does not require spacetime. We're still waiting.
The spiritual property. As I told you, God's existence is not bound to the physical. He exists in a different realm. Einstein's theories can only apply to the physical universe, not to the spiritual realm. Trying to describe God and how he operates with physical laws and properties is like trying to weigh a chicken with ruler. The measurements are simply not the same.

If he is in a different realm, then, please explain how he can INTERACT with stuff if this realm (miracles) without gaining properties of the universe?

Or How can an infinite being, come into a finite universe? Wouldn't that break the universe?

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21-08-2012, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 10:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:00 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  The spiritual property. As I told you, God's existence is not bound to the physical. He exists in a different realm. Einstein's theories can only apply to the physical universe, not to the spiritual realm. Trying to describe God and how he operates with physical laws and properties is like trying to weigh a chicken with ruler. The measurements are simply not the same.

You are the one who asserted she exists "in a different realm". That is a SPATIAL concept. "Apart from the physical", is spatial. If it's spatial, it's also temporal. You somehow have this mistaken idea, from having heard it so much, that you get to make up invisible shit, and think adults in 2012 are going to take you seriously. When and if you have one shred of evidence for any of this crap, be sure and let us know. Meanwhile, it's the same as my saying "the moon is made of green cheese", and worth even less, as we know green cheese actually exists. "Existence" requires time. Does your god "think" ? Doesn't your god get mad ? Isn't your god pleased when, (and only when), you do something good ? Everything about your god requires spacetime. If your god requires spacetime for it's existence, she is not the creator of the dimensions in which she exists. Either your god has a "mind" which actually processes some thought(s), or it does not. If it does think, it requires time.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 10:15 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:00 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 07:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Since you have no evidence for what the conditions were, at or before, (if that even makes sense), the Big Bang, you cannot assert that "something came from nothing". You simply don't know. I asked you "does the TOTAL ENERGY of the universe, (which sums to ZERO), equal something, or nothing ?". You have not answered the question. Saying "gravity is "something" is only part of one side of the equation. And if Gravity has a negative value, (which it can), is THAT "something" ?

You cannot possibly think, that with on-going Evolution, genetic diseases came into existence on the planet Earth, only *after* Adam sinned ? I'm sure there is evidence to prove that is false.

Why would you think humans are promised new physical bodies ? Jesus didn't get one. He walked through walls, and did not eat, and did not sleep, and ascended to heaven, and at least once, (the Road to Emmaus), was not recognized by his followers. THAT is not a "physical body". (It may be a zombie body), but it's NOT a "physical body.

Einstein proved that space and time are intimately connected. There is no space without time. Saying god exists "outside", (a spacial concept), something, is a meaningless statement. I asked you before to give us ONE property of your god which does not require spacetime. We're still waiting.
The spiritual property. As I told you, God's existence is not bound to the physical. He exists in a different realm. Einstein's theories can only apply to the physical universe, not to the spiritual realm. Trying to describe God and how he operates with physical laws and properties is like trying to weigh a chicken with ruler. The measurements are simply not the same.

So in essence your entire argument is: "I can't prove something that is un-provable. you just gotta have faith."

You have no "evidence" that this being is outside our physical realm because we don't even have anything to DEFINE outside that realm. Nothing. Nada. There is NO EVIDENCE that there is even anything outside reality. You can't prove it, you can't experience it, you have no evidence for it. You have nothing more than a book, a bunch of ideas passed down from other people who passed them down from other people who have managed to twist things to fit in the crevasse.

Your argument is entirely the god of the gaps. "He doesn't exist here, so obviously he exists where we can't see him, since that is the only place he'll fit."

No evidence, no reason to believe it. A book full of hearsay things, from anonymous authors, translated over and over again.

This comparison of "well christianity has better evidence than islam" WHAT EVIDENCE? You can't even PROVE anything outside space and time because there is no way to UNDERSTAND what that is.

God of the gaps, argument from ignorance... "gotta have faith."

Sorry, heard this crap a million times.

There WAS NO TIME before the big bang for a creator to EVEN EXIST IN. So how does that even make sense? And if I even hear anything to do with, "Well I don't believe the big bang" then all I can say is GO PICK UP A BOOK AND LEARN SCIENCE or your argument IS INVALID.
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21-08-2012, 10:24 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You are the one who asserted she exists "in a different realm". That is a SPATIAL concept. "Apart from the physical", is spatial. If it's spatial, it's also temporal. You somehow have this mistaken idea, from having heard it so much, that you get to make up invisible shit, and think adults in 2012 are going to take you seriously. When and if you have one shred of evidence for any of this crap, be sure and let us know. Meanwhile, it's the same as my saying "the moon is made of green cheese", and worth even less, as we know green cheese actually exists.

Whoa now bucky, the moon isn't made of green cheese. I read a book a long time ago from some guys who knew some guys who were inspired by an ultimate being and THEY SAID (even though i don't know their names, and they were never actually able to credibly verify) that someone else told them that the moon was made out of brown cottage cheese.

Don't mind that we've actually confirmed that it's not through science. That's all just trickery. You gotta listen to the cheesible (the book of cheese). It is the inerrant word of Blarg. You see, Blarg lives in another dimension that we can't possibly experience. You have no way to confirm it and I have absolutely no credible evidence other than a bunch of hearsay accounts and unverifiable personal experience stories from people who know people. But the word of Blarg is credible because it's old, and because it's old it's clearly a message from Blarg himself.

You see, Blarg loves you very much. All you have to do is believe in Blarg. If you don't, even if you're a good person, he will send you to a place where they smear you in cottage cheese and drop you in pots of boiling acid forever. But he loves you.

You may find this REALLY hard to believe, but you have to have the presupposition that the word of Blarg is real. You should try reading it sometime, it's a great book and Blarg loves you so much.
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21-08-2012, 10:26 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:37 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, you believe in a type of conditional election or a type of synergy with God. You don't believe in unconditional election.

My problem with your view is that it places restrictions on God. God is subjugated to free will... moreover, a human's free will. I think this is an affront to his omnipotence. If God is God then nothing can ever influence anything that has happened or will ever happen. We can have any type of choice even down to the smallest minutia. If we did, then God wouldn't be all powerful.

I'm not sure if you fully understand the concept of election and the magnitude of reformed theology. You say you believe in election and free will, which, I'm assuming you see election only as far as salvation goes and not in other things. Like I said above, you limit God's powers and subjugated God to our choices and actions no matter how small.

Man is not responsible for the fall. Man was already created as a sinful being. If man was created perfect, then he could not sin. Perfection cannot choose imperfection, if it could, then it was never perfect. Even if you say man had the propensity to sin, then that means that man wasn't perfect and was created sinful because of the aforementioned.

As far as the evil thing:

Lamentations 3:38
38 From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the evils and the good.

Isaiah 45:7
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

These are the most accurate translations of the verses. Look at the Hebrew as well. There is no getting around the word. Modern translations have toned down the language, unfortunately.

Evil is a "thing" as it says God is creating it.

I believe in unconditional election and and irresistable grace. God in his mercy and grace chooses some out of no merit of their own to be the elect. Though their hearts are totally depraved and blind to the truth, God makes the blind to see and they are then able to see the truth of the Gospel and make the inevitable CHOICE to accept it.

Our differences reside in our understanding of irresistability. I see the Gospel as an irresistable offer whereas you might see the acceptance of the Gospel as being based on the irresistable force of the Holy Spirit. I have no problem with disagreeing, but that's simply my conclusion.

I disagree with your conclusion that the ability to choose to do wrong is an imperfection. Perfection is what will result at the return of Christ and the establishment of new kingdom when we will still be able to choose wrong, but simply won't choose it. I think that's the whole point. God's purpose was to create beings who have a free will to choose right or wrong, but who will choose to love and follow him. This will be brought to completion with the return of Christ.

I believe that in the context of these verses, the evil that is being spoken of is not of the ontological sort, but rather of the calamitous sort. If this is not the case, it would appear that Habbakuk 1:13 is a blatant contradiction "Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor."

We can discuss this further if you'd like, but I'm spread kind of thin.
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21-08-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:24 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You are the one who asserted she exists "in a different realm". That is a SPATIAL concept. "Apart from the physical", is spatial. If it's spatial, it's also temporal. You somehow have this mistaken idea, from having heard it so much, that you get to make up invisible shit, and think adults in 2012 are going to take you seriously. When and if you have one shred of evidence for any of this crap, be sure and let us know. Meanwhile, it's the same as my saying "the moon is made of green cheese", and worth even less, as we know green cheese actually exists.

Whoa now bucky, the moon isn't made of green cheese. I read a book a long time ago from some guys who knew some guys who were inspired by an ultimate being and THEY SAID (even though i don't know their names, and they were never actually able to credibly verify) that someone else told them that the moon was made out of brown cottage cheese.

Don't mind that we've actually confirmed that it's not through science. That's all just trickery. You gotta listen to the cheesible (the book of cheese). It is the inerrant word of Blarg. You see, Blarg lives in another dimension that we can't possibly experience. You have no way to confirm it and I have absolutely no credible evidence other than a bunch of hearsay accounts and unverifiable personal experience stories from people who know people. But the word of Blarg is credible because it's old, and because it's old it's clearly a message from Blarg himself.

You see, Blarg loves you very much. All you have to do is believe in Blarg. If you don't, even if you're a good person, he will send you to a place where they smear you in cottage cheese and drop you in pots of boiling acid forever. But he loves you.

You may find this REALLY hard to believe, but you have to have the presupposition that the word of Blarg is real. You should try reading it sometime, it's a great book and Blarg loves you so much.

You just don't understand. The cheese is really green cheese, but the green color exists in the spiritual realm of curds. You have never seem the green color, but you just have to have faith, because without curds the Big Bang could not have slid down from the Great Cheese Maker. The brown color is all just an illusion. All cheeses that exist come from the Great Cheesemaker. WLC tol me so.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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21-08-2012, 10:39 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
OH MY BLARG! Everything I thought I knew was all just bullshit! YOU rocked my world, Bucky. I'm glad you shared this epiphany of presuppositional proof with me. It sounds perfectly legitimate even though I have no way of fully validating the claims. Therefore I will concede that your story sounds better than mine, utilizing the confirmation bias of my mind and will start the "Great cheese slide" denomination to the church of Blarg. ALL HAIL BLARG and the great cheesemaker! Your appeal to mystery and supernatural cause is sincere, therefore your story must be credible.
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21-08-2012, 10:43 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:15 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:00 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  The spiritual property. As I told you, God's existence is not bound to the physical. He exists in a different realm. Einstein's theories can only apply to the physical universe, not to the spiritual realm. Trying to describe God and how he operates with physical laws and properties is like trying to weigh a chicken with ruler. The measurements are simply not the same.

So in essence your entire argument is: "I can't prove something that is un-provable. you just gotta have faith."

You have no "evidence" that this being is outside our physical realm because we don't even have anything to DEFINE outside that realm. Nothing. Nada. There is NO EVIDENCE that there is even anything outside reality. You can't prove it, you can't experience it, you have no evidence for it. You have nothing more than a book, a bunch of ideas passed down from other people who passed them down from other people who have managed to twist things to fit in the crevasse.

Your argument is entirely the god of the gaps. "He doesn't exist here, so obviously he exists where we can't see him, since that is the only place he'll fit."

No evidence, no reason to believe it. A book full of hearsay things, from anonymous authors, translated over and over again.

This comparison of "well christianity has better evidence than islam" WHAT EVIDENCE? You can't even PROVE anything outside space and time because there is no way to UNDERSTAND what that is.

God of the gaps, argument from ignorance... "gotta have faith."

Sorry, heard this crap a million times.

There WAS NO TIME before the big bang for a creator to EVEN EXIST IN. So how does that even make sense? And if I even hear anything to do with, "Well I don't believe the big bang" then all I can say is GO PICK UP A BOOK AND LEARN SCIENCE or your argument IS INVALID.
Science simply cannot explain everything. I'm never said that you just need faith. What I will say is that you need to look beyond empirical evidences, or you will find that much of what you believe about life has little sound grounding. Metaphysics, philosophy go beyond what can be empirically proven, and deal with the ideas I was discussing.

Christianity vs Islam is comparative religion debate, totally different issue.

Lastly I believe in the big bang. I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically believe in the big bang. It is scientifically undeniable. My one question is what caused the big bang? While you have found my explanation insufficient, explanations atheists seem to offer are equally insufficient. My conclusion however isn't God of the gaps. It is the only sound philosophical conclusion one can come to when searching for the ultimate cause of the universe. I'm not arguing for the God of Bible at this point. I'm just arguing for a God.
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