A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 10:48 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2012 12:01 AM by Erxomai.)
A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Speaking of the miraculously inexplicable interventions of the ineffable being into this fallen realm, how do you explain that miracles have only happened during 4 specific Bible times and never since? Moses could do miracles. Then a few centuries with zero miracles Elijah and Elisha get to do a few tricks. A few centuries until Daniel and his budz conjure up a couple of illusions and then several more centuries pass until Yeshua and his posse pull a few rabbits out of their hats.

How much trust can you really place in the veracity of these miracles. Or if you're of a more liberal understanding and don't believe in the biblical miracles, then why should anyone even believe there was anything like a real god if there is no special revelation showing what an awesome god it is?

Speaking of placing your trust in these stories, how do you reconcile that there is not one shred of physical evidence for anything mentioned in Bible until approximately 900ish BCE? No evidence of any patriarch (except in that they coincide with Caananite demigods). No evidence of a Moses or an exodus. No evidence of a Joshua or a conquest of Caanan (in fact quite the opposite. The archeological evidence shows the city states of Caanan collapsed internally into villages and territories lead by warlords. The very first physical evidence that mentions anything in the bible isn't until sometime between 1000-900 BCE. A faint, cryptic carving that refers to the house of David.

There is a lot of biblical material that you are basing your faith on, yet not one hint of evidence to be found in reality.

No mention of an actual king David or kingdom. In fact, there is no other substantial archeological evidence for anything in the old testament until you get to the destruction of Israel in the 700s and Judah in the 500s. And the physical evidence of that time shows us this is when the history of the Jews was invented to unify themselves as a people and to comfort their sorrows in captivity. They found a bunch of old creation myths and they found some poetry and they put together documents that gave themselves an imaginary pedigree and a code of rules that would make them distinct not only from their masters, but from their fellow captives from other countries.

Don't even get me started on NT documents. Let's just say they exist because of the OT documents. Since there is no verification that anything in the Jewish history actually happened until about 2500 years ago, why do you think it's acceptable to believe any of it is real?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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21-08-2012, 10:50 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:15 PM)Logisch Wrote:  So in essence your entire argument is: "I can't prove something that is un-provable. you just gotta have faith."

You have no "evidence" that this being is outside our physical realm because we don't even have anything to DEFINE outside that realm. Nothing. Nada. There is NO EVIDENCE that there is even anything outside reality. You can't prove it, you can't experience it, you have no evidence for it. You have nothing more than a book, a bunch of ideas passed down from other people who passed them down from other people who have managed to twist things to fit in the crevasse.

Your argument is entirely the god of the gaps. "He doesn't exist here, so obviously he exists where we can't see him, since that is the only place he'll fit."

No evidence, no reason to believe it. A book full of hearsay things, from anonymous authors, translated over and over again.

This comparison of "well christianity has better evidence than islam" WHAT EVIDENCE? You can't even PROVE anything outside space and time because there is no way to UNDERSTAND what that is.

God of the gaps, argument from ignorance... "gotta have faith."

Sorry, heard this crap a million times.

There WAS NO TIME before the big bang for a creator to EVEN EXIST IN. So how does that even make sense? And if I even hear anything to do with, "Well I don't believe the big bang" then all I can say is GO PICK UP A BOOK AND LEARN SCIENCE or your argument IS INVALID.
Science simply cannot explain everything. I'm never said that you just need faith. What I will say is that you need to look beyond empirical evidences, or you will find that much of what you believe about life has little sound grounding. Metaphysics, philosophy go beyond what can be empirically proven, and deal with the ideas I was discussing.

Christianity vs Islam is comparative religion debate, totally different issue.

Lastly I believe in the big bang. I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically believe in the big bang. It is scientifically undeniable. My one question is what caused the big bang? While you have found my explanation insufficient, explanations atheists seem to offer are equally insufficient. My conclusion however isn't God of the gaps. It is the only sound philosophical conclusion one can come to when searching for the ultimate cause of the universe. I'm not arguing for the God of Bible at this point. I'm just arguing for a God.

But it is... We don't know how( and if even) the universe was caused, so you ASSUME A GOD DID IT.

Let me ask you, why not believe in a Big Crunch, instead of a UNCAUSED BEING.

Why is a UNCAUSED BEING more plausible that anything I could thing of.

Why not an ALL POWERFUL UNICORN? A UNICORN who is reborn into another UNICORN AND THEY WERE FOREVER UNICORNS.

Sorry if it sounds like I am mad, but this is frustrating.

Virtual particles are uncaused.

Philosophy has no place in empiracle science, and empiracle evidence is the shit that is going to matter in this conversation.

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21-08-2012, 10:53 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Science simply cannot explain everything.

Cannot, or has not yet? Do you understand what science means? It is not absolute (which is not a bad thing).


Please forgive me if I'm wrong and missed it, but 10 default pages of replies after this post, I have not seen an answer to my question "why must there be?". It looks like several people want to know, too. Are you open to the possibility that your conclusion of 'must be' may not be the truth? Don't you simply want the truth (whether that is for or against your Christian belief? For me, having walked similar shoes as you, I was sick of fighting and just wanted to discover the truth. Shouldn't we all?)
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21-08-2012, 10:54 PM
A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Lastly I believe in the big bang. I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically believe in the big bang. It is scientifically undeniable. My one question is what caused the big bang? While you have found my explanation insufficient, explanations atheists seem to offer are equally insufficient. My conclusion however isn't God of the gaps. It is the only sound philosophical conclusion one can come to when searching for the ultimate cause of the universe. I'm not arguing for the God of Bible at this point. I'm just arguing for a God.

Actually, the Big Bang is completely scientifically deniable. Astronomers and Cosmologists are looking at new evidence all the time. There's even an article floating around here about Aussie scientists researching the possibility of a cold crystallization of matter rather than an explosion. Then how do you reconcile your apologetics to explain the whole let there be light thing?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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21-08-2012, 10:59 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Who says that it has to have had a cause? If you go back and say that it had to have a cause and that a being caused it, then we're opening the door to even more questions.

You're still completely ignoring why you seem to think that a creator must be outside space and time and why you think it exists in a place we can't experience. What brings you to such a conclusion? how do you know?

How did that being get here? The generic answer is that "that being always existed" but we don't have any evidence for that either. So that would be an assumption. (unless you have a different explanation, but that's the one I hear 9/10 times)

Your answer is also not the only sound conclusion. There can't be a sound conclusion at this time because we don't have all the answers. If you're bridging gaps with assumptions and philosophy with things we don't yet understand they are still nothing more than assumptions. Philosophy can sound as awesome as you want, it can be filled with pink butterflies and puffy clouds and make you feel totally happy inside, but it doesn't make it true.

We don't even know that the universe that we are in is the only universe.

The philosophical red herring excuse that it's the only sound conclusion is basically saying that nothing else sounds good because we don't understand it, therefore it just makes sense to explain it with something since we don't understand it. Man has filled the gaps with god(s) for centuries for things we don't understand and didn't.

We explained the earth as being flat and sitting on pillars. When the gods got mad they created thunder and lightning. When people died from horrible diseases it was because they did something to anger the gods. These are all things that we now can explain. We know that those things are. We do not have all of the answers to the universe yet, we don't fully understand everything yet. That does not mean that what we do not understand is a god or gods though, since we have no evidence of them in the first place. We are still yet filling in these gaps of things we don't understand with things that "make sense" to us because at least we can explain them away.

It is "philosophically" easier to go through life feeling like you have those answers. Feeling like that "void" you have is filled by something that can be explained by faith, superstition or any other unnatural cause. You hear a noise when you're alone in your house, must have been the ghost of grandma telling you she's watching out for you. Something good happens in life and you were blessed. Go through a struggle or hard time and god is testing you, then things get better and clearly he was setting you up for a life lesson. There's all kinds of things we attribute to "supernatural" cause. We still have no evidence for them.

Things that haven't yet been explained are simply things that haven't yet been explained.

The pleading for everything needing to have a cause is that comfort level we get used to when we're "spiritual" or "religious".... it is easier to go through life if you really feel like some being created this universe, created you and gave you a purpose. What if it isn't? what if that's not the case? (So far there is no evidence to suggest it is the case) it would mean that you weren't created for a purpose, there is no divine plan, there is no god, there is no creator. You are a person, one of billions, a tiny spec in a gigantic universe. This means that you have to give yourself purpose.

A child's world is rocked for a week or two when you tell them that santa doesn't exist. Life is totally different for them now that the mystery of the presents goes away. They realize you were playing tricks on them all along and giving them a story they could enjoy as a kid. Now they realize it doesn't exist. They'll be pissed, maybe sad, angry at you. Eventually they cope with reality and life goes on. Such it is with a god of any kind.

You can talk philosophy all you want, look for all the excuses that you want. At the end of the day there is still no evidence for a god. Explain away the unknown with other unknowns and you can make it sound as reasonable as you want.

The question is: What is more important? What is TRUE? Or what sounds GOOD to you? The truth is not always what you want it to be.
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21-08-2012, 11:10 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 03:48 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  A person can be gay and be a Christian. He simply cannot participate in homosexual acts which are sinful.

First let me indulge my inner grammarian here. The phrase "homosexual acts which are sinful" is ambiguous, since it's not clear whether you intend a restrictive or non-restrictive interpretation.

NON-RESTRICTIVE: "homosexual acts, which are sinful" (Note the comma!) That is, homosexual acts, all of which are sinful.

RESTRICTIVE: "homosexual acts that are sinful" That is, some homosexual acts are sinful, some are not. You're just talking about the sinful ones.

I assume you intended the non-restrictive interpretation.

So . . . let me ask you a question I've always wanted to ask a Christian.

What about blow jobs?

Those are rather common (although some would say not common enough) in both heterosexual and homosexual contexts.

Is oral sex sinful? Is it OK if it's between a husband and wife? Does God think a female mouth on a penis is fine and dandy but a male mouth is a no-no? (I assume Catholics are against any kind of sex that doesn't allow the possibility of procreation, right?)

Just wondering.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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21-08-2012, 11:16 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Well you could as kingschosen about it, but he doesn't strike me as the type who has an issue with that stuff since he's an evolutionary creationist. Therefore I would assume since he's aware of homosexual designation being natural in you know... nature... that it would be deemed "natural"... actually, I would be interested to hear his (kingy) take on that.
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21-08-2012, 11:33 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
I am personally debating on whether or not I should join in here.

The arguments this guy is presenting are old, stale and easy to refute.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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21-08-2012, 11:34 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Do it. Why not? Nothing you haven't heard before. JUMP IN. The all powerful cheese creator of Blarg demands it.
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22-08-2012, 12:01 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 11:33 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I am personally debating on whether or not I should join in here.

The arguments this guy is presenting are old, stale and easy to refute.

If that were the whole truth, then you wouldn't even debate the desire to converse. So, what's the other side of the debate? Big Grin
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