A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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22-08-2012, 07:31 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 07:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:26 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I believe in unconditional election and and irresistable grace. God in his mercy and grace chooses some out of no merit of their own to be the elect. Though their hearts are totally depraved and blind to the truth, God makes the blind to see and they are then able to see the truth of the Gospel and make the inevitable CHOICE to accept it.

Our differences reside in our understanding of irresistability. I see the Gospel as an irresistable offer whereas you might see the acceptance of the Gospel as being based on the irresistable force of the Holy Spirit. I have no problem with disagreeing, but that's simply my conclusion.

I disagree with your conclusion that the ability to choose to do wrong is an imperfection. Perfection is what will result at the return of Christ and the establishment of new kingdom when we will still be able to choose wrong, but simply won't choose it. I think that's the whole point. God's purpose was to create beings who have a free will to choose right or wrong, but who will choose to love and follow him. This will be brought to completion with the return of Christ.

I believe that in the context of these verses, the evil that is being spoken of is not of the ontological sort, but rather of the calamitous sort. If this is not the case, it would appear that Habbakuk 1:13 is a blatant contradiction "Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor."

We can discuss this further if you'd like, but I'm spread kind of thin.

We'll bury the election thing for now. I'm burnt out on it anyway. Smile I know how you feel.

Real quickly though, you took Habbakuk 1:13 out of context and you didn't cite the entire verse. Read part B. Habbakuk is asking God questions, and in fact, asks why God approves evil.

Verse 13 in its entirety:

(NASB)
Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?


(YLT)
Purer of eyes than to behold evil, To look on perverseness Thou art not able, Why dost Thou behold the treacherous? Thou keepest silent when the wicked Doth swallow the more righteous than he,

Bending verses for personal context doesn't work here.

Yes, KC. So don't do it from now on.

Quote:1 Peter 3:1 -3

1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

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22-08-2012, 08:08 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:24 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Whoa now bucky, the moon isn't made of green cheese. I read a book a long time ago from some guys who knew some guys who were inspired by an ultimate being and THEY SAID (even though i don't know their names, and they were never actually able to credibly verify) that someone else told them that the moon was made out of brown cottage cheese.

Don't mind that we've actually confirmed that it's not through science. That's all just trickery. You gotta listen to the cheesible (the book of cheese). It is the inerrant word of Blarg. You see, Blarg lives in another dimension that we can't possibly experience. You have no way to confirm it and I have absolutely no credible evidence other than a bunch of hearsay accounts and unverifiable personal experience stories from people who know people. But the word of Blarg is credible because it's old, and because it's old it's clearly a message from Blarg himself.

You see, Blarg loves you very much. All you have to do is believe in Blarg. If you don't, even if you're a good person, he will send you to a place where they smear you in cottage cheese and drop you in pots of boiling acid forever. But he loves you.

You may find this REALLY hard to believe, but you have to have the presupposition that the word of Blarg is real. You should try reading it sometime, it's a great book and Blarg loves you so much.

You just don't understand. The cheese is really green cheese, but the green color exists in the spiritual realm of curds. You have never seem the green color, but you just have to have faith, because without curds the Big Bang could not have slid down from the Great Cheese Maker. The brown color is all just an illusion. All cheeses that exist come from the Great Cheesemaker. WLC tol me so.

Heretic. Green means unripe. It's a new moon, ripening. Repent or die.Evil_monster

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2012, 08:10 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(20-08-2012 04:56 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Greetings Everyone,

I'm a college student who is in the process of earning a BA in pastoral ministry, in preparation to head into the ministry as an assistant pastor. Following my undergraduate studies, I hope to do graduate work at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and Biola University in Theology, Church History, Christian Apologetics, and possibly Science and Religion, whether this leads to doctoral studies is still to be determined.

My purpose in coming to this forum is to resharpen my writing and debating skills as both have grown rusty from lack of use. If someone is influenced by the arguments I present, I will count it an honor and a privilege, but my expectations here are not to convert everybody. I just want to have some civil discussions with people from the opposite side of the spectrum.
For those of you that attended the Reason Rally, I also was in attendance with a group called True Reason. Unlike the "Christians" at the rally who bore signs and got into yelling matches with the atheists at the rally, participants in our group engaged in civil and respectful discussions that was well-received by those we conversed with. I hope to engage in similar discussions here on this forum, and I will strive to show you the same gentleness and respect that I offered to those at the rally.

Feel free to ask me any questions about Christianity. I'm talking many of major classes this year, so I'll need outlet to talk about all this.

Look forward to talking with you all!

-Tom


If jesus did not finish the job, what is coming?
What is it that christians are awaiting?
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22-08-2012, 08:12 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:15 PM)Logisch Wrote:  So in essence your entire argument is: "I can't prove something that is un-provable. you just gotta have faith."

You have no "evidence" that this being is outside our physical realm because we don't even have anything to DEFINE outside that realm. Nothing. Nada. There is NO EVIDENCE that there is even anything outside reality. You can't prove it, you can't experience it, you have no evidence for it. You have nothing more than a book, a bunch of ideas passed down from other people who passed them down from other people who have managed to twist things to fit in the crevasse.

Your argument is entirely the god of the gaps. "He doesn't exist here, so obviously he exists where we can't see him, since that is the only place he'll fit."

No evidence, no reason to believe it. A book full of hearsay things, from anonymous authors, translated over and over again.

This comparison of "well christianity has better evidence than islam" WHAT EVIDENCE? You can't even PROVE anything outside space and time because there is no way to UNDERSTAND what that is.

God of the gaps, argument from ignorance... "gotta have faith."

Sorry, heard this crap a million times.

There WAS NO TIME before the big bang for a creator to EVEN EXIST IN. So how does that even make sense? And if I even hear anything to do with, "Well I don't believe the big bang" then all I can say is GO PICK UP A BOOK AND LEARN SCIENCE or your argument IS INVALID.
Science simply cannot explain everything. I'm never said that you just need faith. What I will say is that you need to look beyond empirical evidences, or you will find that much of what you believe about life has little sound grounding. Metaphysics, philosophy go beyond what can be empirically proven, and deal with the ideas I was discussing.

Christianity vs Islam is comparative religion debate, totally different issue.

Lastly I believe in the big bang. I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically believe in the big bang. It is scientifically undeniable. My one question is what caused the big bang? While you have found my explanation insufficient, explanations atheists seem to offer are equally insufficient. My conclusion however isn't God of the gaps. It is the only sound philosophical conclusion one can come to when searching for the ultimate cause of the universe. I'm not arguing for the God of Bible at this point. I'm just arguing for a God.

But that is precisely a god of the gaps and an argument from ignorance and an argument from personal incredulity. You can't come up with how the big bang came about and say it must be supernatural.

You have no evidence for the existence of any god.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2012, 08:16 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 10:10 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 07:50 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  I have some questions.

knowing that:

  1. God is all-knowing, he knows past present and future
  2. God is all-mighty/powerful
  3. God is perfect

Before creating Adam and Eve he knew they will sin?

If he created us as imperfect beings, Why did he make the prohibition of eating from that apple tree (eventually had to happen that they eated from it)?

Knowing the imperfections he imposed on us, knowing they will fail to keep away from the tree, he even allowed the devil to motivate them to eat the forbidden fruit. Why?

Why the hell should I be responsible from what someone else did?
God created humans despite the fact that he knew they would fall, their free will would result ultimate good which is a relationship with good. God didn't want robots. He wanted autonomous agents to be in relation with. That involved allowing for the possibility that man would fall. God valued this choice so much that he even allowed Satan to tempt them. He wanted them to really choose him, and not have it be simply some default function.

Why are you responsible?Well, every action has it consequences. Choices made by our parents, and even by ancestors from previous generations have an effect on us today. As the representatives of mankind, Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God, and thus they brought on the curse. Individually we all choose to rebel against. Therefore there is a individual and corporate responsibility for our rebellion.

If you don't accept the presuppositions of Christian belief, it will be difficult to accept this explanation. I'm assuming you don't even believe in God, so it would be extremely difficult, but that's the explanation.

And that explanation is at once both silly and morally repugnant.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2012, 08:18 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 07:40 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 07:28 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  So it seems you must be able to see that what a person believes to be the Truth is heavily influenced by the important people around you.

Why should we accept your view of god over that of a devout and sincerely practicing Muslim?
What's at issue here is not how one came to believe something, but what it is you actually believe. People in America believe the world is spherical. An unreached people believe the world is on the top of a turtles back. Both are sincere beliefs, which should we believe? The one that is supported by the most evidence. We must look at the facts. Therefore you should accept Christianity over Islam because Christianity has more evidence for its truthfulness than Islam. (I realize this final statement requires a look at this evidence, but I am simply stating this as the reason to believe one thing over another.)

Neither has any evidence whatsoever. All of the evidence from archaeology, history, and textual analysis casts serious doubt on the truth of these and Judaism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2012, 08:23 AM
A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 06:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 06:30 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I like the way you think on that one.. but it is dark waters you tread I fear. Does indoctrination count?

That might be the outcome but what is the value?

We all know this one, I guess:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower"


So what is the value to society of polishing the chain?
What is the value to society of pushing that drug?

I want answers damnit!

It'll be okay, DLJ,
You've already stated his value. It's the same value any drug dealer is offering. If he just sells a little weed, he's not really harming anyone and arguably offering some benefit to his users. Thing is, this guy is into the hard stuff. He's offering stuff that will give users a false reality with made up hopes. As long as they keep filling his offering plates, he'll keep helping them chase their false euphoria and broken dreams.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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22-08-2012, 08:49 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 08:23 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 06:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  That might be the outcome but what is the value?

We all know this one, I guess:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower"


So what is the value to society of polishing the chain?
What is the value to society of pushing that drug?

I want answers damnit!

It'll be okay, DLJ,
You've already stated his value. It's the same value any drug dealer is offering. If he just sells a little weed, he's not really harming anyone and arguably offering some benefit to his users. Thing is, this guy is into the hard stuff. He's offering stuff that will give users a false reality with made up hopes. As long as they keep filling his offering plates, he'll keep helping them chase their false euphoria and broken dreams.

Thank you for getting the point. I hope not only you.

But the question is not rhetorical, I would really like to know what value this future pusher thinks he will provide to society. Will a subdued, indocrinated and docile flock actually be better for all? I dunno, maybe it will. I want to hear the argument.

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22-08-2012, 09:03 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Enough of my tomfoolery! DLJ, my opinion on that is really quite simple. Lets just say I'd like to reserve my right to be proven wrong, and leave it at that ambiguous answer. Take it as you will.

(I am wondering what his answer to my question will be as well, if he does so choose to answer that is.)

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22-08-2012, 09:14 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 07:31 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 07:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  We'll bury the election thing for now. I'm burnt out on it anyway. Smile I know how you feel.

Real quickly though, you took Habbakuk 1:13 out of context and you didn't cite the entire verse. Read part B. Habbakuk is asking God questions, and in fact, asks why God approves evil.

Verse 13 in its entirety:

(NASB)
Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?


(YLT)
Purer of eyes than to behold evil, To look on perverseness Thou art not able, Why dost Thou behold the treacherous? Thou keepest silent when the wicked Doth swallow the more righteous than he,

Bending verses for personal context doesn't work here.

Yes, KC. So don't do it from now on.

Quote:1 Peter 3:1 -3

1. Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

And yet, you so quick to quip, did exactly what you condemned.

Keep reading.

Instructions are given to the man. If the man is following these instructions, then the wife should not have a problem being submissive because her husband is acting in Christ.

A load of responsibility is place on the husband as the head of the household, and in order to honor that, the wife must be respectful; likewise, the husband must be loving in every way to his wife.

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