A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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22-08-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 07:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:26 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I believe in unconditional election and and irresistable grace. God in his mercy and grace chooses some out of no merit of their own to be the elect. Though their hearts are totally depraved and blind to the truth, God makes the blind to see and they are then able to see the truth of the Gospel and make the inevitable CHOICE to accept it.

Our differences reside in our understanding of irresistability. I see the Gospel as an irresistable offer whereas you might see the acceptance of the Gospel as being based on the irresistable force of the Holy Spirit. I have no problem with disagreeing, but that's simply my conclusion.

I disagree with your conclusion that the ability to choose to do wrong is an imperfection. Perfection is what will result at the return of Christ and the establishment of new kingdom when we will still be able to choose wrong, but simply won't choose it. I think that's the whole point. God's purpose was to create beings who have a free will to choose right or wrong, but who will choose to love and follow him. This will be brought to completion with the return of Christ.

I believe that in the context of these verses, the evil that is being spoken of is not of the ontological sort, but rather of the calamitous sort. If this is not the case, it would appear that Habbakuk 1:13 is a blatant contradiction "Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor."

We can discuss this further if you'd like, but I'm spread kind of thin.

We'll bury the election thing for now. I'm burnt out on it anyway. Smile I know how you feel.

Real quickly though, you took Habbakuk 1:13 out of context and you didn't cite the entire verse. Read part B. Habbakuk is asking God questions, and in fact, asks why God approves evil.

Verse 13 in its entirety:

(NASB)
Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?


(YLT)
Purer of eyes than to behold evil, To look on perverseness Thou art not able, Why dost Thou behold the treacherous? Thou keepest silent when the wicked Doth swallow the more righteous than he,

Bending verses for personal context doesn't work here.
I'll admit the lack of examination, but I will also say that I believe that allowing evil to occur is different that approving that evil that does occur. If God does value free will, then allowing His creation to choose wrong is an ultimate because it secures the possibility of a true love relationship with Him.

This reminds of my days on christianteenforums...we'd go round and round on this stuff all day lol.
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22-08-2012, 02:01 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 08:10 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  If jesus did not finish the job, what is coming?
What is it that christians are awaiting?

We are awaiting the return of Christ in which everyone will be resurrected from the dead and given new bodies. We will then live with Christ as King for eternity on the new earth.
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22-08-2012, 02:04 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 08:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:43 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Science simply cannot explain everything. I'm never said that you just need faith. What I will say is that you need to look beyond empirical evidences, or you will find that much of what you believe about life has little sound grounding. Metaphysics, philosophy go beyond what can be empirically proven, and deal with the ideas I was discussing.

Christianity vs Islam is comparative religion debate, totally different issue.

Lastly I believe in the big bang. I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically believe in the big bang. It is scientifically undeniable. My one question is what caused the big bang? While you have found my explanation insufficient, explanations atheists seem to offer are equally insufficient. My conclusion however isn't God of the gaps. It is the only sound philosophical conclusion one can come to when searching for the ultimate cause of the universe. I'm not arguing for the God of Bible at this point. I'm just arguing for a God.

But that is precisely a god of the gaps and an argument from ignorance and an argument from personal incredulity. You can't come up with how the big bang came about and say it must be supernatural.

You have no evidence for the existence of any god.
It must be supernatural in the sense that nature (the result) cannot be its own cause. Can you tell me what evidence you believe is necessary to prove the existence of God?
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22-08-2012, 02:11 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 12:27 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Well that was quicker than I expected.


[Image: Mike-Tysons-Punch-Out-NES-Gameplay-Scree...R5z3bGRsPA]

Don't worry, I'm still around bud.
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22-08-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 02:04 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  It must be supernatural in the sense that nature (the result) cannot be its own cause. Can you tell me what evidence you believe is necessary to prove the existence of God?

What evidence would you accept which proves that Zeus exists?
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22-08-2012, 02:14 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 01:50 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 06:21 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  A bit shouty there. Did I touch a nerve?


So... do you believe that every person killed under the command of God was evil? For example, were the killed babies evil? Were the 5 year olds evil? Were the 8 year olds? The 11 year olds?

Were there no adults not consumed with evildoing? Were there no little old ladies free from evildoing?


Read back over your post. I think you'll find it's not me who has a problem saying genocide is wrong. If I read you right then genocide and murder are only wrong if the victim is innocent. What the Lord giveth the Lord taketh away and all that.

So if you were confident that the voice in your head is God's, would you comfortable with the morality of following his command to murder and to commit genocide?
I apologize if my caps of innocent was taken as shouty, I was merely doing it to emphasize the word.
I believe everyone, including myself, are worthy of God's wrath, so yes, man, woman, and child are worthy of destruction. Thankfully, God has a provided a way of salvation through Jesus Christ.

God is the ultimate moral authority. He is the ultimate judge. While it is His right and responsibility to punish, I am a sinner amongst sinners and so I do not have the right to make such punishment out of my own will.

As for God's voice being in my head, I don't believe that at all. God's revelation is extremely rare, and probably wouldn't be a "voice in my head." God's word and will to mankind can be found in the Scriptures. And before you try to say that God orders us to kill people in the Old Testament, you must understand that most of the OT is descriptive not prescriptive. It merely describes how God acted in human history at certain times, and it should not be taken as a lease to destroy non-believers at will. I hope that answers your question.

This is a premise I have major issues with. It reminds me of some type of domestic abuse syndrome. It created everything, knew things would go wrong but let it happen anyway. It provides a way out by sacrificing itself, to itself, but if you get it angry, well heck, you brought it upon yourself, but I digress.

How does a newborn baby deserve any type of punishment, let alone eternal punishment? How does anyone deserve being punished for what two people did way back when? I'm not even going to bring up what you would call sin, just a normal person with no major moral transgressions (genocide etc). So it knew you'd be born after the incident but is holding you responsible for something you had no way of knowing about, let alone be able to stop?

If it is the ultimate moral authority it seems to me that it needs to a) figure out what moral is and b) how to behave better than a petulant 2 year old.

This is why religion has never had any sway with me. I remember being brought to bible studies by a babysitter. It repulsed me then with it's crudity and charlatanism. Luckily I was surrounded by adults who didn't allow the continued mental abuse for that is clearly what it is.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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22-08-2012, 02:15 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
In any case, it's not a question of finding sufficient evidence, it's a case of removing sufficient doubt. It's not like anyone's gonna say "after this much evidence I will cease looking for alternative explanations". That's what scientific method is all about - challenging even long held assumptions.
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22-08-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 02:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 02:04 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  It must be supernatural in the sense that nature (the result) cannot be its own cause. Can you tell me what evidence you believe is necessary to prove the existence of God?

What evidence would you accept which proves that Zeus exists?

Zeus is a god, therefore you are just asking me the question I asked you, in which I've given you my answer, so now answer mine. At this point, I'm not arguing for the God of the Bible.
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22-08-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 01:18 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 10:54 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Actually, the Big Bang is completely scientifically deniable. Astronomers and Cosmologists are looking at new evidence all the time. There's even an article floating around here about Aussie scientists researching the possibility of a cold crystallization of matter rather than an explosion. Then how do you reconcile your apologetics to explain the whole let there be light thing?

I would be interested in reading some of those new theories. As for reconciling with the "let there be light thing," I understand Genesis to be figurative in much of its language. While there are some things I am very certain on, I am not naive enough to think the origins of the earth are not still somewhat shrouded in mystery. The purpose of Genesis was primarily to communicate that God created the universe, and that there was a falling away of mankind from God. It's not a science book.

Here is an article about the specific research I mentioned.http://news.sky.com/story/974933/aussie-scientists-challenge-big-bang-theory

I don't suppose it would really change your apologetics, nor do I have any clue if it will end up as a viable theory. I just intended to show the Big Bang is not undeniable. Which is the same way I feel about theological answers. The more information we receive, the more obvious it is religion only evolved as a way of explaining nature. As we come to understand the natural universe, we see how the idea of religion has become obsolete.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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22-08-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(22-08-2012 02:21 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(22-08-2012 02:13 PM)morondog Wrote:  What evidence would you accept which proves that Zeus exists?

Zeus is a god, therefore you are just asking me the question I asked you, in which I've given you my answer, so now answer mine. At this point, I'm not arguing for the God of the Bible.

Your answer is that nature cannot cause itself ergo God did it?

What about the tiny blue fairies? What about Santa? Why you hating on Santa? There are a thousand other explanations than God. *False dichotomy*.

God existing per se is not a testable hypothesis. Unless he makes himself felt in the physical world in some way. So for deistic God (God who leaves the universe alone after creation) there is no way of telling. If you give your God properties such as God of the Hebrews then we can talk about evidence of existence.
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