A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
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21-08-2012, 05:50 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Bucky, good job on the analysis but I have a couple of questions that I have never understood about this type of argument:

1. Wasn't the big bang the creation of space itself, and not just the explosion of matter and expansion into space? My understanding of current scientific thinking is that there was nothing before the big bang - no empty space waiting to be filled, no universe, not even time. Therefore the big bang is the answer to the question of where everything came from, and the question of what was before the big bang is meaningless because there was no time, and therefore no before.

2. In a similar vein, I've never understood how apologists can discuss where the universe comes from without first explaining where a god would have come from.
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21-08-2012, 06:21 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
So true reason... It's genocide wrong?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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21-08-2012, 06:46 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
What incentive is there for your future flock to believe what you tell them?

What penalty is there if they choose not to believe it?

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21-08-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Ive got a question for you, any other theists can answer as well if they choose.

You worship a Christian God...... who has only ever (in this current version) been around for about 2000 years.

Before this latest "version update" of christianity came into existence there have been many different gods and goddesses worshipped all over the globe...... people prayed to these different gods, they made offerings and sometimes sacrifices. They went to war in the name of these gods and they had more believers back then.

So in the knowledge that there have been quite possibly hundreds of different gods throughout the ages..... in comparison why should you believe your god over all of the previous gods, that nobody worships anymore???

Also you Pro Abortion and Pro Gay...... cool, im glad that you think that way.... however is that not majorly hippocritical of you to go against the words that you are going to be spending the next 2-5 years studying???

Your views on Abortion and Homosexuals matches mine.... live and let live..... how is it then that if you have these views you can still associate yourself with an organisation that goes against your beliefs and causes suffering to thousands of people over those two causes???

Welcome to the forum by the way Big Grin

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21-08-2012, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 07:57 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 05:50 AM)Jeff Wrote:  Bucky, good job on the analysis but I have a couple of questions that I have never understood about this type of argument:

1. Wasn't the big bang the creation of space itself, and not just the explosion of matter and expansion into space? My understanding of current scientific thinking is that there was nothing before the big bang - no empty space waiting to be filled, no universe, not even time. Therefore the big bang is the answer to the question of where everything came from, and the question of what was before the big bang is meaningless because there was no time, and therefore no before.

2. In a similar vein, I've never understood how apologists can discuss where the universe comes from without first explaining where a god would have come from.

Yes, as far as we know right now, the dimensions of spacetime did have a beginning at the Big Bang. However, if the "cyclic" universe theory, or multiverse theory proves to be correct, then we may have to adjust that view. There may be other dimensions which our brains cannot conceive of , as we do not exist in those dimensions, or detect those dimensions. Penrose and Krauss have proposed ways in which that might have some evidence, ("ripples" in WMAP data, if gravity waves are seen). (I personally think this may not be the case, as I think that the "unification" problem with the Standard Model, and Quantum Gravity will prove to be a far more complex problem than just a "unification"). I think the nature of what we perceive as "gravity" may be a far more interesting and complex "thing", than what we see it as today. Gravity will be seen to open the door to many other problems and discoveries, as it becomes more understood. So yes, for now, until we know more about the "conditions", at or before the Big Bang, the evidence is, now that there was no "before" the Big Bang, thus saying a creator "acted" before spacetime is a meaningless statement. We'll see what the WMAP data shows, and there is another probe, the name of which I don't recall, which also may provide data for a cyclic model. Penrose's book "Cycles of Time", looks at some of the issues involved with this model. Krauss mentions in "A Universe from Nothing" a possible way to detect other universes.

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21-08-2012, 07:38 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(20-08-2012 08:36 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 07:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is quite disturbing, isn't it? Shocking

Erxy - please run a check on the space-time continuum. I thought I heard some tearing.Consider

That was probably just Uranus. Drinking Beverage

You make a good argument.Consider

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21-08-2012, 07:48 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Welcome aboard Tom. Since you are too young to drink, I would advise getting a helmet Smile

If you want honest discussion, you've come to the right place. As you can see it isn't a shy lot that inhabits this forum.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
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21-08-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(20-08-2012 09:38 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 09:23 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  \
When looking at the origins of the universe, you're getting further from the truth by adding complexities. If the universe needs a creator, then so does the creator.

How did you come to that conclusion?

If you want to swim in these waters, you'd better get some scientific water wings.

The principle of parsimony, or Ockham's razor. If you are not familiar with the concept, look it up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-08-2012, 07:58 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
I'm happy to see this get addressed. Occam's razor is, at best, a philosophical "law," not a scientific law or theory. It has no value as the basis for a scientific argument.
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21-08-2012, 07:58 AM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(20-08-2012 10:10 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(20-08-2012 10:02 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  I have no idea. Neither do you.

I admit that I have no idea. You say "God did it"... which doesn't answer the question; it just adds further questions (as I've already mentioned).
l
Ah I didn't realize you were agnostic on this. While I realize you still won't accept this, the nature of God is that he is not a contigent being. Our understanding of the necessity of causation is based on the laws of the physical universe yet such laws would not apply to the one who created that universe and those laws. I thus find theistic or at least deistic belief to be the only plausible explanation for the origin of the universe, as there must be an ultimate, non-contigent cause.

No, you believe there must be an ultimate, non-contingent cause, because you can't get your mind around a larger concept that the mass/energy of the universe always was or that 'nothing' is unstable and results in something.

Read Laurence Krauss's A Universe from Nothing, for example.

If you are going to make cosmological pronouncements, then learn some fucking cosmology. "I don't know, so God did it" is such a weak, lazy point of view - it makes me want to vomit.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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