A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-08-2012, 02:25 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:19 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 12:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'd like to know, what do you think of
a. abortion ?
b. being gay ?
I believe abortion is murder. I believe homosexual acts are sinful, and I do not support gay marriage because it fails to recognize the implicit heterosexuality connected to the word marriage. This is a free country, so I don't care if folks really want to shack up. I'm fine with giving them benefits as well, as long as others who live together in a non-sexual way can have those benefits as too. Just don't call it marriage, because that is not what the word marriage means.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the word.

Lemon and lime are the perfect marriage of citrus fruits to make a tasty soda.

Steve and Harvey are the perfect marriage of personalities to make a cohesive intimate relationship.

Just visiting.

-SR
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Stark Raving's post
21-08-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
The implicit heterosexuality...

You do realise that we give words meaning and not the other way round? Wink

Moral certainty. What a luxury.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
21-08-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:19 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I believe abortion is murder.
You may believe whatever you want, but you're still wrong.

murder - Pronunciation: /ˈmərdər/
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

murder - Pronunciation: /ˈmərdər/
verb [with object]
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation

Unless you live in a country that has established laws which prohibit abortion, it cannot be, by any means, called 'murder'.

Sources:
Oxforddictionary
Several other dictionaries

(21-08-2012 02:19 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I believe homosexual acts are sinful
Is that belief based on the Bible (OT)?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Vosur's post
21-08-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:02 AM)cufflink Wrote:  Notice what you haven't said: If you are influenced by the arguments we present, will you also count it an honor and a privilege? Or is that simply outside the realm of possibility for you, since you already have the absolute truth?

So you can enlighten us concerning a subject we know nothing about? What makes you think there aren't people here who know a helluva lot more about Christianity than you do?

I'm also wondering about your education. You say you're about to earn a BA in pastoral ministry, but your writing skills have grown rusty from lack of use. What have you been doing in your courses? Your teachers don't have you write???

As for a place like Biola, what you'll get there is indoctrination, not education. I used to teach a course with a major critical thinking component, and I recall having a couple of students who had transferred to my university from Biola. Neither one of them could think critically worth a damn. Small sample set, I know. But it certainly seemed that what they had gotten at Biola was poor preparation for life outside the Christian goldfish bowl.

You also mentioned debating. Keep in mind that debating has little to do with truth-seeking. It's a game, a sport. It's all about scoring points. If you study at Biola with William Lane Craig and his ilk, you'll improve your debating skills, all right--through sophistry, half-truths, and sometimes outright lies.

By the way, did you ever ask yourself why places like Biola have "Apologetics" departments--academic units devoted to defending the faith against critics? I wonder why MIT and CalTech don't have similar departments to help future scientists defend the principles of physics and chemistry and biology and astronomy. Smile

I would advise everyone to not read into what I wrote too much. I was just trying to be nice. If you changed my point of view, I would be very thankful as it would mean that you led me from the darkness into the light.

Maybe there are people here who know more about Christianity than I do. If so, I will still gladly contribute what comparatively feeble knowledge I posses on the subject. However, I am hoping that you might find me to be a good source as someone who is being trained in Christian theology and as someone who has spent 20 years of his life in the church.

As for my skills, my skills have grown rusty due to summer break, working a fulltime job, and from a lack of time to engage in persuasive writing. The school I attend is a fully accredited institution, and I assure you we write papers.

As for Biola, there are people who graduate with a great amount of skill and others who do not. Going to a certain school doesn't mean you will be a carbon copy of the best in the field.

Indoctrination is everywhere. It's a part of life. Everyone has a worldview that they think is the truth and so of course they will teach what they believe to be true. I happen to agree with the worldview of Biola and so I desire to go there to be further trained in that worldview. While it is useful to engage in environments that do not hold your worldview, I don't think it is necessary to be exclusively in those environments to adequately evaluate opposing worldviews.

MIT and CalTech do not have an apologetic for the sciences, because they deal with the physical, while religion and philosophy deal with metaphysical. Yet even in one's approach to the sciences he must have a philosophy of sciences, and so I think there is indeed an apologetic for even those areas. If one approaches the science from a purely naturalistic philosophy, that will drastically affect the possible conclusions he can reach in those studies. Therefore, I do not believe apologetics is exclusive to Christianity. Christians simply use the word more.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:19 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 12:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'd like to know, what do you think of
a. abortion ?
b. being gay ?
I believe abortion is murder. I believe homosexual acts are sinful, and I do not support gay marriage because it fails to recognize the implicit heterosexuality connected to the word marriage. This is a free country, so I don't care if folks really want to shack up. I'm fine with giving them benefits as well, as long as others who live together in a non-sexual way can have those benefits as too. Just don't call it marriage, because that is not what the word marriage means.

Ehh, no. A marriage is a union. It has no implicit connection with heterosexuality.

What you're implying is that God only recognizes a marriage based on a man-made ceremonial event. This is actually contrary to your reformed beliefs.

Yes, God only recognizes a marriage between a man and a woman, but God's marriage is in no way equal to ceremonial, man-made marriages.

It is bigoted and wrong to deny ceremonial marriage to gay people in the US. Basing marriage on a theocracy is invalid when you're not a theocracy. Not everyone in the US is a Christian, and civil rights and equality are promised to every person. You can't push Christian standards upon non-Christians.

Supporting gay marriage has nothing to do with supporting homosexuality. It has to do with supporting equal rights for all people.

Supporting gay marriage doesn't invalidate God's view of marriage because the institute of marriage is ceremonial and man-made. God only recognizes His own standard.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like kingschosen's post
21-08-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:39 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-08-2012 02:19 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I believe abortion is murder. I believe homosexual acts are sinful, and I do not support gay marriage because it fails to recognize the implicit heterosexuality connected to the word marriage. This is a free country, so I don't care if folks really want to shack up. I'm fine with giving them benefits as well, as long as others who live together in a non-sexual way can have those benefits as too. Just don't call it marriage, because that is not what the word marriage means.

Ehh, no. A marriage is a union. It has no implicit connection with heterosexuality.

What you're implying is that God only recognizes a marriage based on a man-made ceremonial event. This is actually contrary to your reformed beliefs.

Yes, God only recognizes a marriage between a man and a woman, but God's marriage is in no way equal to ceremonial, man-made marriages.

It is bigoted and wrong to deny ceremonial marriage to gay people in the US. Basing marriage on a theocracy is invalid when you're not a theocracy. Not everyone in the US is a Christian, and civil rights and equality are promised to every person. You can't push Christian standards upon non-Christians.

Supporting gay marriage has nothing to do with supporting homosexuality. It has to do with supporting equal rights for all people.

Supporting gay marriage doesn't invalidate God's view of marriage because the institute of marriage is ceremonial and man-made. God only recognizes His own standard.

You so bent KC. All that time with Stark in the shower has changed you Tongue
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
21-08-2012, 02:43 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 05:50 AM)Jeff Wrote:  Bucky, good job on the analysis but I have a couple of questions that I have never understood about this type of argument:

1. Wasn't the big bang the creation of space itself, and not just the explosion of matter and expansion into space? My understanding of current scientific thinking is that there was nothing before the big bang - no empty space waiting to be filled, no universe, not even time. Therefore the big bang is the answer to the question of where everything came from, and the question of what was before the big bang is meaningless because there was no time, and therefore no before.

2. In a similar vein, I've never understood how apologists can discuss where the universe comes from without first explaining where a god would have come from.

The question is what caused the big bang. How can nothing cause anything to happen?
The universe began to exist, everything that begins to exist has a cause. Theists believe God is that cause because the nature of God is that he has always existed and is therefore a non-contigent being. Any other conclusion would simply leave with you saying something came from absolutely nothing, or that there is an infinite amount of universes which is a physical impossibility.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-08-2012, 02:45 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2012 03:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 02:19 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I believe abortion is murder. I believe homosexual acts are sinful, and I do not support gay marriage because it fails to recognize the implicit heterosexuality connected to the word marriage. This is a free country, so I don't care if folks really want to shack up. I'm fine with giving them benefits as well, as long as others who live together in a non-sexual way can have those benefits as too. Just don't call it marriage, because that is not what the word marriage means.

The word "murder" is a legal term, which means the "unlawfull taking of life, of another human". So what you think of it, is irrelevant, as abortion is not unlawful, and therefore does not meet the criteria, for the word's use. One does not get to make up laws, and apply them for one's personal amusement. Whether or not it meets a moral criteria of the taking of ANY human life is another matter. If one is going to say the taking of ANY human life is immoral, then all soldiers who fight and do so, are also "murderers" according to your criteria. If some taking of life if reasonable, and some not, that is another matter. So what are the criteria, and the process you used, to arrive at your position ?

The question is what is life ? Since you cannot tell me when exactly a human life begins, maybe you better sit this one out.

As far as "marriage" goes, one must also define one's terms. In the Bible it has many definitions :

■Marriage consists of one man and one or more than one woman (Gen 4:19, 4:23, 26:34, 28:9, 29:26-30, 30:26, 31:17, 32:22, 36:2, 36:10, 37:2, Ex. 21:10, Judges 8:30, 1 Sam 1:2, 25:43, 27:3, 30:5, 30:18, 2 Sam 2:2, 3:2-5, 1 Chron 3:1-3, 4:5, 8:8, 14:3, 2 Chron 11:21, 13:21, 24:3).

■Nothing prevents a man from taking on concubines or sexual slaves in addition to the wife or wives he may already have (Gen 25:6, Judges 8:31, 2 Sam 5:13, 1 Kings 11:3, 1 Chron 3:9, 2 Chron 11:21, Dan 5:2-3).

■A man might choose any woman he wants for his wife (Gen 6:2, Deut 21:11), provided only that she is not already another man’s wife (Lev 18:14-16, Deut. 22:30) or a relative (Lev 18:11, 20:17, Lev 20:14, Lev 18:18). The concept of a woman giving her consent to being married is not in the Bible.

■If a woman cannot be proven to be a virgin at the time of marriage, she shall be stoned to death (Deut 22:13-21).

■A rapist must marry his victim (Ex. 22:16, Deut. 22:28-29), unless she was already a fiancé, in which case he should be put to death if he raped her in the country, but both of them killed if he raped her in town (Deut. 22:23-27).

■If a man dies childless, his brother must marry the widow (Gen 38:6-10, Deut 25:5-10, Mark 12:19, Luke 20:28).

■Women must marry the man of their father’s choosing (Gen. 24:4, Josh.15:16-17, Judges 1:12-13, 12:9, 21:1, 1 Sam 17:25, 18:19, 1 Kings 2:21, 1 Chron 2:35, Jer 29:6, Dan 11:17).

■Women are the property of their fathers until married and the property of their husbands thereafter (Ex. 20:17, 22:17, Deut. 22:24, Mat 22:25).

■The value of a woman might be approximately seven years’ work (Gen 29:14-30).

■Inter-faith marriages are prohibited (Gen 24:3, 28:1, 28:6, Num 25:1-9, Ezra 9:12, Neh 10:30, 2 Cor 6:14).

■Divorce is forbidden (Deut 22:19, Matt 5:32, 19:9, Mark 10:9-12, Luke 16:18, Rom 7:2, 1 Cor 7:10-11, 7:39).

■It is better to not get married at all—although marriage is not a sin (Matt 19:10, I Cor 7:1, 7:27-28, 7:32-34, 7:38).

Therefore, before one defines what is "biblical", and what is "sinful", one must also define those terms, and how it is, one came to accept the criteria one has for the process of making the definitions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
21-08-2012, 02:48 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
* A wild atheist apears*

Hello, welcome to the forum!

So, I hear you subsribe to the theology of election....

Did you ever relize how redundant it is for God to make us sin, and not believe, so that he could burn us in Hell for something he made us to do.

We aren't being punished for what we did, we are being punished for what God MADE us do.

Can you look at me straight in the face and say that is justified?

Or that fact that God MADE me not believe, so I am still being punished for WHAT GOD DID...


Can you tell me that this is the type of asshole that you would want to worship?

(this part may or may not apply to you)
Now I know this might be a faulty argument, but what if your child( imagine it) becomes an atheist? How would you feel that God condemned her, possibly before she was even born, and she had ABSOLUTELY NO SAY IN IT.

By the way, what about you? How do you feel knowing that everything you own, love, and do is not yours?

You didn't work for it, God made you.

You don't own it, God Made you do so.

You don't love your girlfriend, or your wife, God Made you.

You aren't smart, nor did you ever work for your education, God did that for you.

You don't feel any emotions yourself, God makes you do it for you.

This is the absolute stripping of what humanity is, what we are.

Only a person who wants to be a slave would subscribe, and love such ideas.

Tell me, how can you handle the fact that you are nothing, without God?

That without him MAKING you do these things, you would not even exist.

Enough lf my rant.

Let me ask you something, Does God have freewill? And does he have the three big O's (Omnipotent,Omniscient,Omnibelevolent( or Omnipresent)?

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Atothetheist's post
21-08-2012, 02:50 PM
RE: A future Pastor and Christian Apologist
(21-08-2012 06:21 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So true reason... It's genocide wrong?

Killing a massive amount of INNOCENT people is wrong. The nations God commanded to be destroyed in the Old Testament was due to the evil in their midst.

God will one day punish all who have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The nations of the OT we justly punished, and they honestly received a punishment that you , I , and everybody deserves.

So again, yes genocide is wrong because it is the murder of innocent people. As humans, we do not possess the authority to take life. God is the ultimate judge and therefore his punishment of those nations was justifiable.

I don't expect you accept this response, but that is the truth if God exists.

If God doesn't exist, then I don't know how I could say genocide is wrong.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: