A generalized theory of evolution will include
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09-09-2012, 07:47 AM
A generalized theory of evolution will include
the heavy stuff

http://web.ncf.ca/collier/papers/entev.pdf

A generalized theory of evolution will include not only internal informational
processing and external constraints, but will also describe the interaction between
the two in information theoretic terms. The hierarchy of organization extends not
only downwards towards molecules, atoms, and perhaps further, but also upwards
to populations, ecosystems and worlds. The circumstances vary according to the
organization of the level. The same principles apply throughout



Does this make sense?

That paper shares how vast 'evolution' is and the process being natural, is a violation of the 'heat' (thermodynamic) model, just by comprehending what is occuring at the molecular level.


I know that paper may be tough but to a mind seeking a logic on the matter, it is fantastic. It will enable you to realize that knowledge itself, evolves.

ie... the energy gained, exceeds the "S"
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09-09-2012, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2012 12:56 PM by Phaedrus.)
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
John Collier (http://ukzn.academia.edu/JohnCollier), Professor of Religion, Philosophy, and Classics at the University of Kwazulu-Natal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...lu-Natal), the third best school in South Africa, defending a book and a number of papers written in 1987 by David R. Brooks and E. O. Wiley, including most notably the book Evolution as Entropy: Toward a Unified Theory of Biology.

John Collier, being a student of the humanities, is clearly not qualified to speak on evolutionary biology, population genetics, chemistry, information theory, and thermodynamics, something blatantly obvious considering the layman's understanding evident in the paper.



Rather than waste time with a tertiary paper written by a professor of Philosophy, if you want to debate science quote the scientists. I'm guessing you're already very familiar with Evolution as Entropy by Brooks & Wiley; why don't you write up a research paper on it summarizing their positions and citing supporting evidence that they provide? I don't have time to read the whole book, it's your job as their supporter to present their position in a manner which makes their position understandable.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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09-09-2012, 02:49 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this entropy and evolution thing. I understand evolution (not an expert), but my understading of entropy is that it is random chance. how can something impact random chance? again I am no expert and my ignoranc could flood the grand canyon.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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09-09-2012, 03:55 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
The best formulation of the second law of thermodynamics that I've heard is this:

The potential energy of a closed system will tend towards a minimum.

This is a natural consequence of several other known natural laws; energy (especially heat) tends to move from high concentration to low, no energy transfer is 100% efficient, and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

As potential energy is used to perform work, the total potential energy of the closed system decreases. Useful potential energy is converted to randomized heat, and the randomized heat spreads through the system until it reaches equilibrium. When the whole system reaches equilibrium there is no more potential energy and no more work can be done. This is called maximum entropy.

Entropy is essentially the loss of potential energy, and the less potential energy there is in a system the less work can be done in that system.


The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, that is systems with no net exchange of matter or energy. Adding energy in a localized fashion adds potential energy to the system and decreases entropy. Removing energy from a system creates potential energy (the areas that have not had energy removed are at a higher energy state than the areas that have had energy removed) and therefore decreases entropy. Adding and removing matters works similarly.


The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to "order" or "information" as laymen understand it. High entropy systems can be some of the most highly ordered around; see quartz crystals for instance, which have a perfect crystal lattice at near perfect equilibrium within itself. It has extremely high entropy; very little potential energy. Yet it is extremely well ordered. And the second law only applies to quantum information which is actually not information at all but merely the states occupied by particles, which happens to behave very similarly to heat.



Finally, the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the theory of evolution or life in any way whatsoever because these systems are wide open at every level with free exchange of energy at the molecular, cellular, organism, population, biome, and planetary levels.


This is why anyone who tries to apply "entropy" or "the second law" to evolution is generally either ignored (as in the case of Brooks and Wiley who are biologists way out of their depth talking about subjects they don't have expertise in) or roundly criticized (like Creationists).

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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09-09-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
thanks phaedrus. now i can see how daft bishadi is being in this thread. And I'm a little less ignorant. Smile

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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09-09-2012, 04:19 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
I'd also like to point out that information theory contains a term called "entropy"; however entropy in information theory is not related to entropy in physics. Although you can make some connections on an intuitive level, they are completely unrelated on a mathematical and theoretical level.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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09-09-2012, 07:11 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
(09-09-2012 03:55 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The best formulation of the second law of thermodynamics that I've heard is this:

The potential energy of a closed system will tend towards a minimum.

ice

Quote:This is a natural consequence of several other known natural laws; energy (especially heat) tends to move from high concentration to low, no energy transfer is 100% efficient, and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
Heat is not a property of nature. So convert that to what is causing the 'heat' than consider why the 'hot' is going cold.
Quote:As potential energy is used to perform work, the total potential energy of the closed system decreases.
no such thing as a closed system except to just remove natures causes.

There is no closed system in a living system and why the 'law' does not and cannot be applied to living systems.

Quote: Useful potential energy is converted to randomized heat,
heat is not a property of nature.

for example: the microwave oven is heating food how? That imposition of em (energy) upon mass is what is measured, in contrast to an environment (temp).

but still, heat aint a property of nature!
Quote: and the randomized heat spreads through the system until it reaches equilibrium.

there is what entropy is all about; having no idea why.

Quote: When the whole system reaches equilibrium there is no more potential energy and no more work can be done. This is called maximum entropy.
gas can be hot or cold, still lots of potential, either way.
Quote:Entropy is essentially the loss of potential energy, and the less potential energy there is in a system the less work can be done in that system.

for steam engines

Quote:The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, that is systems with no net exchange of matter or energy.


by that definition, then there is no closed system, anywhere between any 2 points of mass, within the universe. (no net exchange of matter or energy)

now can everyone see why the OLD school is about to be obsolete?

Quote:Finally, the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the theory of evolution or life in any way whatsoever because these systems are wide open at every level with free exchange of energy at the molecular, cellular, organism, population, biome, and planetary levels.

hence the 2LoT is not a law of NATURE.

It is used to describe 'heat' displacement of the steam engine era.

Quote:


This is why anyone who tries to apply "entropy" or "the second law" to evolution is generally either ignored

because idiots just can accept that the law, aint a law,, but a sort of guideline.

Within his post anyone that comprehended what he claimed can be certain, that he may know the law, but he dont know evolution, living processes, nor how the fuck any of it works.


ask him who lavoisier is.
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09-09-2012, 07:21 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
Bishadi,

You are now flooding the science forum with your threads.

Stop.

Now.

Do not post any new topics in the science forum.

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09-09-2012, 07:43 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
The second law cannot be applied willy nilly, because there are no truly closed systems in nature except the universe itself (probably). However it makes a good generalization for a number of situations, including modern internal combustion engines and electric motors. It's also a very useful tool for learning physics. And for studying chemical reactions. If you'd like my friend the mechanical engineer's input on the utility of the second law I can ask him to comment.


Anyway you're not really showing a very good understanding of thermodynamics, Bish. Heat is not a property of particles, you're correct, however it is a property of groups of particles. Heat is the average of the randomized motion in a given body, and that randomized motion, its affects, and how it behaves has a lot of important implications. Which is why thermodynamics as a study exists and isn't just "for steam engines".

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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09-09-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: A generalized theory of evolution will include
(09-09-2012 07:11 PM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(09-09-2012 03:55 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The best formulation of the second law of thermodynamics that I've heard is this:

The potential energy of a closed system will tend towards a minimum.

ice

Quote:This is a natural consequence of several other known natural laws; energy (especially heat) tends to move from high concentration to low, no energy transfer is 100% efficient, and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
Heat is not a property of nature. So convert that to what is causing the 'heat' than consider why the 'hot' is going cold.
Quote:As potential energy is used to perform work, the total potential energy of the closed system decreases.
no such thing as a closed system except to just remove natures causes.

There is no closed system in a living system and why the 'law' does not and cannot be applied to living systems.

Quote: Useful potential energy is converted to randomized heat,
heat is not a property of nature.

for example: the microwave oven is heating food how? That imposition of em (energy) upon mass is what is measured, in contrast to an environment (temp).

but still, heat aint a property of nature!
Quote: and the randomized heat spreads through the system until it reaches equilibrium.

there is what entropy is all about; having no idea why.

Quote: When the whole system reaches equilibrium there is no more potential energy and no more work can be done. This is called maximum entropy.
gas can be hot or cold, still lots of potential, either way.
Quote:Entropy is essentially the loss of potential energy, and the less potential energy there is in a system the less work can be done in that system.

for steam engines

Quote:The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, that is systems with no net exchange of matter or energy.


by that definition, then there is no closed system, anywhere between any 2 points of mass, within the universe. (no net exchange of matter or energy)

now can everyone see why the OLD school is about to be obsolete?

Quote:Finally, the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the theory of evolution or life in any way whatsoever because these systems are wide open at every level with free exchange of energy at the molecular, cellular, organism, population, biome, and planetary levels.

hence the 2LoT is not a law of NATURE.

It is used to describe 'heat' displacement of the steam engine era.

Quote:


This is why anyone who tries to apply "entropy" or "the second law" to evolution is generally either ignored

because idiots just can accept that the law, aint a law,, but a sort of guideline.

Within his post anyone that comprehended what he claimed can be certain, that he may know the law, but he dont know evolution, living processes, nor how the fuck any of it works.


ask him who lavoisier is.

If heat isn't a property of nature, then how is it that heat occurs naturally. From stars, the earths core, fire, and to radioactive elements?

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