A god discovers a godless universe
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28-03-2017, 12:42 PM
A god discovers a godless universe
Let's pretend a god exists that has a great deal of power, but it's not infinite. Let's say the power to reshape a galaxy, or in layman's terms, the power to alter a grain of sand on the beach.

One day this god discovers another universe and finds out that this universe contains no gods. It is godless and it has been godless for billions of years.

Life throughout the universe exists and came about through natural means.

This god is now aware of countless atrocites occurring on countless worlds.

If a god is not human, then does it have any humanity ? Does it have the capacity to care or have empathy ?
Perhaps it believes that interference in another cultures way of life would do more harm than good. (Prime Directive - Star Trek)

Besides the atrocites, there are also countless worlds of beauty and peace.

Would this god be conflicted about what to do ?
Would this god simply acknowledge this universe's existence and move on ?
Or would it be compelled to do something ?

If this god immediately imposes his will doesn't that seem a bit mechanical in nature ? Preprogrammed.
As if it has no choice. It must execute this reaction upon seeing this new universe.

Just a few of my thoughts
What do you think ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-03-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: A god discovers a godless universe
Not enough data to form an opinion. What are the characteristics, and character, of this being? What is its reputation and motivation? What animates its sense of purpose, if any? And why would you choose to imagine it in that certain way?

If you imagine that it would reflexively "impose its will" on beings simply because it can, you are imagining something similar to the typical tri-omni Abrahamic deity, and you're right; in a sense, it can't seem to help itself. It has to be controlling. But that is a reflection of the men who invented it. That deity is just extrapolated from the despotic and often warlike monarchs of the era, and the core belief of those times that repression of individual freedom is a Good Thing and maintains Order.
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28-03-2017, 02:32 PM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2017 02:38 PM by kim.)
RE: A god discovers a godless universe
(28-03-2017 12:42 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's pretend a god exists that has a great deal of power, but it's not infinite. Let's say the power to reshape a galaxy, or in layman's terms, the power to alter a grain of sand on the beach.
Ok - so this god is limited to only that which it knows.

(28-03-2017 12:42 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  One day this god discovers another universe and finds out that this universe contains no gods. It is godless and it has been godless for billions of years.

Life throughout the universe exists and came about through natural means.

This god is now aware of countless atrocites occurring on countless worlds.

So, now it knows there is a thing/universe it does not know. This may or may not set up a new batch of limitations for this god to know more of only that which it knows. New thing/universe so, former knowledge may not be the same and any powers and limitations thereof, may be irrelevant.

(28-03-2017 12:42 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If a god is not human, then does it have any humanity ? Does it have the capacity to care or have empathy ?
Perhaps it believes that interference in another cultures way of life would do more harm than good. (Prime Directive - Star Trek)

Besides the atrocites, there are also countless worlds of beauty and peace.

Would this god be conflicted about what to do?
Would this god simply acknowledge this universe's existence and move on?
Or would it be compelled to do something?

I don't think one can speculate about what another being would do, especially since this new thing/universe has come along. Perhaps the being itself doesn't know because he does not know if it's power will be able to effect this new thing/universe.

"If a god is not human ...". One can't expect something that is not human to behave the way a human does. So, essentially all bets are off as far as the behavior of this god goes.

(28-03-2017 12:42 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If this god immediately imposes his will doesn't that seem a bit mechanical in nature ? Preprogrammed.
As if it has no choice. It must execute this reaction upon seeing this new universe.

Perhaps it would try to impose it's will at least to test it's power - to see if it indeed could effect this new thing/universe. Hard to tell - it might be a cautious god - seeing countless atrocities and being uncertain if it is able to have an effect on them.

Is this god subject to a determined process - does it have a pattern of immediately imposing it's will? I don't think there is enough precedence to know this about this particular god - it's only just discovered this new thing/universe.

(28-03-2017 12:42 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Just a few of my thoughts
What do you think ?

I'm still back on the "If a god is not human ..." thought. To me, the very idea of a god is human or human based, since the entire idea is a human construct. To put a god outside the realm of human creativity might be giving it too much credit. Wink

I suppose the attributes of any human-like god, might be "super" human. Simply because, why the fuck not? Tongue
*****

It's a good exercise and it gets me thinking. I tend to assume humans create (or created) imaginary beings (gods) with their own likeness, somewhat innocently but also, with a teeny bit of narcissism. Who doesn't want to think of themselves as all powerful and all knowing? Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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28-03-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: A god discovers a godless universe
I think part of the idea for this post was to setup a situation in which a theist had to imagine a universe that naturally came into existence and formed life without a god.

To get a theist to even entertain this idea is key.

Then they have to think about how their god would behave. How has their god behaved in their holy books ?

The other point I wanted to make was about encountering something new.
If you are a fairly moral person who tends to help people in need and you can do it effortlessly, then do you really have a choice. Doesn't your own moral foundation compel you to help.

An evil or immoral person can choose to ignore it or they can help. They aren't compelled to take a particular action. They can choose to commit a harmful act, a helpful act or do nothing.

I guess I'm trying to get some theists to take a look at how they view the behaviors of the god they have in their minds.

Lastly
As far limiting a gods power to that of a galaxy with billions of stars, I'm hoping that anyone who reads it will realize that on the universal scale, reshaping a billion star systems is equivalent to one grain of sand on the beach.

Infinite or all powerful gods wouldn't be compatible with the existence of anything else.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-03-2017, 06:00 PM
RE: A god discovers a godless universe
(28-03-2017 04:05 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I think part of the idea for this post was to setup a situation in which a theist had to imagine a universe that naturally came into existence and formed life without a god.

To get a theist to even entertain this idea is key.

Then they have to think about how their god would behave. How has their god behaved in their holy books ?

The other point I wanted to make was about encountering something new.
If you are a fairly moral person who tends to help people in need and you can do it effortlessly, then do you really have a choice. Doesn't your own moral foundation compel you to help.

An evil or immoral person can choose to ignore it or they can help. They aren't compelled to take a particular action. They can choose to commit a harmful act, a helpful act or do nothing.

I guess I'm trying to get some theists to take a look at how they view the behaviors of the god they have in their minds.

Lastly
As far limiting a gods power to that of a galaxy with billions of stars, I'm hoping that anyone who reads it will realize that on the universal scale, reshaping a billion star systems is equivalent to one grain of sand on the beach.

Infinite or all powerful gods wouldn't be compatible with the existence of anything else.

I just don't see how a god with enough power to influence a large part of one galaxy (which is immense power) would give a damn about one particular species on one particular planet.

A believer would have to make huge unsupported assertions about why a god would care about a single species on one planet.

Books like the bible are shown to have a god concept that is incredibly small and insignificant, the bronze-age barbarians that wrote it couldn't even conceive just how small their god was in the context of what we now know about the vastness of the cosmos.

They couldn't imagine their primitive god concepts that much above the firmament just a few miles over their heads, much less a galaxy over 100,000 light years across, they had no need to create a god that could manage much more than an area the size of the mid-east.

Of course this is why any god concept is so ridiculous in this context, there isn't any reasonable explanation for why a god would care about us, it wouldn't even have a recognizable biological commonality with us.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-03-2017, 06:04 AM
RE: A god discovers a godless universe
(28-03-2017 06:00 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I just don't see how a god with enough power to influence a large part of one galaxy (which is immense power) would give a damn about one particular species on one particular planet.

A believer would have to make huge unsupported assertions about why a god would care about a single species on one planet.
Yep. How long has it been since you took a magnifying glass to an ant hill for the purpose of learning about their daily activities rather than to cook the little buggers? Are you aware of the names of the ants who live outside your back door, and what ant fertilizes what other ant?

I rest my case :-)
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