A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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02-03-2015, 09:54 AM
A "gotcha" argument for Satan
I hate this tack by Christians:

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

But in a way, it represents a classic mode of "argument" they like to use: The fact that we cannot/do not see something or evidence for something is powerful confirmation that it exists.

In other words, the fact that there is no evidence of a devil should frighten you into accepting that there is a devil.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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02-03-2015, 10:28 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2015 05:42 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
It's an unfasiable claim, something religion is no stranger to. It's particularly insidious though because it's a self-fulfilling presuppositional claim. It's akin to the same sort of thinking propagated by conspiracy theorists where denial is invariably equivocated with collusion. It's comfirmation bias at its most dangerous, the most egregious of human cognitive glitches.

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02-03-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
The concept of these types of claims is discussed here.

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02-03-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(02-03-2015 09:54 AM)claywise Wrote:  I hate this tack by Christians:

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

But in a way, it represents a classic mode of "argument" they like to use: The fact that we cannot/do not see something or evidence for something is powerful confirmation that it exists.

In other words, the fact that there is no evidence of a devil should frighten you into accepting that there is a devil.

It comes down to sales tactics. If you had a valid, obtainable, real product to offer the world as a means for living a better life, you could trot it out, point to it, briefly cover its features and it would sell it self.

If you have an invalid, fabricated, made-up transcendental product, which is invisible, and offer it to the world as a means for living a better life, you will have to embrace a lot of aggressive slippery used car salesman tactics to try to convince the gullible, elderly and stupid it is legit.

"But how do I know it is real?"

No worries, it just takes faith, belief in the unknown, and once you die, you will see it in all of its glory, now just sign here, here and here.

"But I don't see the product"

Exactly! isn't it marvelous? It is so wonderful, the creator of it makes it visible to only a select few who sign up, make the full payment, and believe...now sign here, here and here.

"But I read in consumers reports that previous buyers have figured out it is all a lie...a fake product".

Of course they said that, that is the "other guy" working hard to steal away our perspective customers...you don't want to buy from that guy...he planted that evidence to deceive people, now don't you worry your pretty little head with all of those logical questions, you are just cluttering your mind with the inconsequential, that is the other guy messing with your head...now, if you sign right now, I will throw in an ocean front condo with an executive suite for ever and ever, rent free, but you don't get the keys until you die.

"I have to die first to get this product?"

Minor detail, did you see the brochure?.....

Flex

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-03-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
This would be an incredibly dangerous way of thinking. It should lead to the idea that everything could be a trick, and people should live in a constant state of paranoia, unsure of absolutely anything.

Of course, I say "would be" because they don't take this whole idea to its logical conclusion. The devil is supposedly an amazing trickster, but he only tricks people in certain predetermined places. They're never think that the devil's greatest trick was, I don't know, convincing the large majority of humans that a horrible book is the true word of God, or something like that.

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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02-03-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
They have had 2,000 years to create and manipulate this snow job, it is no surprise they have worked to no end to fill in the grey areas with magic, since there is no supporting evidence.

"Explain why blah blah blah".

Goddidit

"but why isn't there evidence to show that blah blah happened"

It requires faith.

"yeah, but if it had evidence, it wouldn't require faith, it would just be fact...."

Exactly, and god wants you to believe in him for the right reasons, which is harder and shows a deeper level of commitment. If there was evidence of god, everyone would believe, and that wouldn't be the same quality of love and commitment to god...so he intentionally made it a faith requirement. God sacrificed his own son for you, that would have been in vain if he just made himself known to the world.

"..........riiiiiiight"

Facepalm

EDIT: Can you tell my parents are ministers? lol

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-03-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Right. The lack of evidence—the need for faith—is the "foundation" of the whole thing.

Why anyone post-Enlightenment would accept that is beyond me.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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02-03-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(02-03-2015 02:21 PM)claywise Wrote:  Right. The lack of evidence—the need for faith—is the "foundation" of the whole thing.

Why anyone post-Enlightenment would accept that is beyond me.

Aren't you just awesome.

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02-03-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(02-03-2015 02:26 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Aren't you just awesome.

Yes, that was all about an ego-boost for me and my magnificent mind.

I am almost certainly not one of the "chosen" (whether defined by Judaism, good ol' Calvin, or some king or other), since try as I might—even after living most of my life as a Christian—I simply can't force myself to believe.

How about a rephrase to spare anyone's delicate sensibilities:

I can only speak for myself, but when science has proved to my satisfaction—and, implicitly or explicitly, that of anyone who uses technology and applied science—time and again, that evidence is a good standard for what I believe, I just can't get my head around the idea that lack of evidence is good evidence.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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02-03-2015, 02:44 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(02-03-2015 02:34 PM)claywise Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 02:26 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Aren't you just awesome.

Yes, that was all about an ego-boost for me and my magnificent mind.

I am almost certainly not one of the "chosen" (whether defined by Judaism, good ol' Calvin, or some king or other), since try as I might—even after living most of my life as a Christian—I simply can't force myself to believe.

How about a rephrase to spare anyone's delicate sensibilities:

I can only speak for myself, but when science has proved to my satisfaction—and, implicitly or explicitly, that of anyone who uses technology and applied science—time and again, that evidence is a good standard for what I believe, I just can't get my head around the idea that lack of evidence is good evidence.

No. Not sensitive.

You just sound like a colossal wank because you can't understand how people can think differently than you.

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