A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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06-04-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-04-2015 09:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-04-2015 05:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Which version?
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)?
American Standard Version (ASV)?
Amplified Bible (AMP)?
Aramaic Bible in Plain English?
BRG Bible (BRG)?
Common English Bible (CEB)?
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)?
Contemporary English Version (CEV)?
Darby Translation (DARBY)?
Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)?
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)?
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)?
English Standard Version (ESV)?
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)?
Expanded Bible (EXB)?
1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)?
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)?
Good News Translation (GNT)?
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)?
International Children’s Bible (ICB)?
International Standard Version (ISV)?
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)?
Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)?
King James Version (KJV)?
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)?
Lexham English Bible (LEB)?
Living Bible (TLB)?
The Message (MSG)?
Modern English Version (MEV)?
Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)?
Names of God Bible (NOG)?
New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)?
New American Standard Bible (NASB)?
New Century Version (NCV)?
New English Translation (NET)?
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)?
New International Version (NIV)?
New International Version - UK (NIVUK)?
New King James Version (NKJV)?
New Life Version (NLV)?
New Living Translation (NLT)?
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)?
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)?
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)?
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)?
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)?
Revised Standard Version (RSV)?
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)?
The Voice (VOICE)?
World English Bible (WEB)?
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)?
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)?
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)?

The fact that the doctrines come out the same in any or all of these Bibles demonstrates the veracity of the Bible. The fact that people care to translate these Bibles over and again and have them come out the same way...

Because nonsense in one language can be independently translated to the same nonsense multiple times does not, in any way, demonstrate that it is not nonsense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-04-2015, 10:02 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-04-2015 09:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 09:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The fact that the doctrines come out the same in any or all of these Bibles demonstrates the veracity of the Bible. The fact that people care to translate these Bibles over and again and have them come out the same way...

Because nonsense in one language can be independently translated to the same nonsense multiple times does not, in any way, demonstrate that it is not nonsense.

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06-04-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-04-2015 09:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Because nonsense in one language can be independently translated to the same nonsense multiple times does not, in any way, demonstrate that it is not nonsense.

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06-04-2015, 06:14 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2015 06:32 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-04-2015 09:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-04-2015 05:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Which version?
...

The fact that the doctrines come out the same in any or all of these Bibles demonstrates the veracity of the Bible. The fact that people care to translate these Bibles over and again and have them come out the same way...

Is that why the Lutherans and Catholics and Protestants and only God knows what other Christian interpretation fought and killed each other for hundreds of years like Sunni v. Shia on steroids? 'Cause they said they all came out the same?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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06-04-2015, 06:20 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-04-2015 11:00 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 09:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Because nonsense in one language can be independently translated to the same nonsense multiple times does not, in any way, demonstrate that it is not nonsense.

Jabberwocky




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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07-04-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-04-2015 09:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The fact that the doctrines come out the same in any or all of these Bibles demonstrates the veracity of the Bible. The fact that people care to translate these Bibles over and again and have them come out the same way...

As the doctrines coming out the same way no matter the translation is evidence for God...
What would you call it if the doctrines come out differently?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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13-04-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(07-04-2015 06:30 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(06-04-2015 09:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The fact that the doctrines come out the same in any or all of these Bibles demonstrates the veracity of the Bible. The fact that people care to translate these Bibles over and again and have them come out the same way...

As the doctrines coming out the same way no matter the translation is evidence for God...
What would you call it if the doctrines come out differently?

[Image: ChristianityBranches.svg]
[Image: Protestant_branches.svg]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination

I don't believe you are trying to obfuscate my point, but you may not be understanding it.

We can look at any 20 of the translations cited right now, put the same verses from those Bible in parallel, and they will come out the same.

Do all atheists have the same degree of agnosticism in their makeup? How about apatheism? Rather a moot point you've made--I'm saying categorically that we can look in any English Bible and find the same text.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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13-04-2015, 04:41 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-04-2015 01:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We can look at any 20 of the translations cited right now, put the same verses from those Bible in parallel, and they will come out the same.

You think? Let's do that and see shall we.

Matthew 5:44
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (NIV)
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (KJV)


Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (NIV)
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (KJV)


Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first will be last (NIV)
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. (KJV)


Matthew 20:22
"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered. (NIV)
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (KJV)


Matthew 24:36
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (NIV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (KJV)


Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them. (NIV)
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (KJV)


Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire (NIV)
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. (KJV)


Mark 10:24
The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!" (NIV)
And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! (KJV)


Luke 1:28
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." (NIV)
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)


Luke 9:55-56
But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village. (NIV)
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (KJV)


I can keep this up all day.

Luke 11:11
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? (NIV)
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? (KJV)


John 5:3-4
Here a great number of disabled people used to lie--the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. (NIV)
In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. (KJV)


John 6:69
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God. (NIV)
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (KJV)


Yup. Sure look like they come out the same to me.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-04-2015, 04:56 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-04-2015 04:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 01:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We can look at any 20 of the translations cited right now, put the same verses from those Bible in parallel, and they will come out the same.

You think? Let's do that and see shall we.

Matthew 5:44
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (NIV)
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (KJV)


Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (NIV)
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (KJV)


Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first will be last (NIV)
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. (KJV)


Matthew 20:22
"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered. (NIV)
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (KJV)


Matthew 24:36
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (NIV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (KJV)


Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them. (NIV)
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (KJV)


Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire (NIV)
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. (KJV)


Mark 10:24
The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!" (NIV)
And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! (KJV)


Luke 1:28
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." (NIV)
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)


Luke 9:55-56
But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village. (NIV)
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (KJV)


I can keep this up all day.

Luke 11:11
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? (NIV)
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? (KJV)


John 5:3-4
Here a great number of disabled people used to lie--the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. (NIV)
In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. (KJV)


John 6:69
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God. (NIV)
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (KJV)


Yup. Sure look like they come out the same to me.

What Q will say (and he will actually have a valid point) is that those are not the same verses in parallel -- they are different verses. What he meant was to take one verse, say Matthew 5:44, and compare different English translations of that same verse. I think if you did that, you would still find significant differences, but what you are doing above is cheating. He didn't claim that different verses would say the same thing.
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13-04-2015, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2015 05:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-04-2015 04:56 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You think? Let's do that and see shall we.

What Q will say (and he will actually have a valid point) is that those are not the same verses in parallel -- they are different verses. What he meant was to take one verse, say Matthew 5:44, and compare different English translations of that same verse. I think if you did that, you would still find significant differences, but what you are doing above is cheating. He didn't claim that different verses would say the same thing.

What you talking 'bout Willis. That's exactly what I did. Those are exactly the same verses in parallel in different English translations. Matthew 5:44 in the New International Version (NIV) reads "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" and Matthew 5:44 in the King James Version (KJV) reads "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you".

How in God's name are those different verses. They both claim to be Matthew 5:44.

EDIT: Check my next post. Think I understand the source of confusion Grasshopper.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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