A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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15-04-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Not to mention the parable of the sheep and goats (in Matthew, I believe), which claims that your destiny (heaven or hell) depends entirely on how you treat other people, and says nothing whatsoever about faith or belief. And that's Jesus talking, not Paul or James.
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15-04-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(15-04-2015 03:20 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Not to mention the parable of the sheep and goats (in Matthew, I believe), which claims that your destiny (heaven or hell) depends entirely on how you treat other people, and says nothing whatsoever about faith or belief. And that's Jesus talking, not Paul or James.

I know, this faith vs works nonsense is always spun by christians as being clear in scriptures, but they obviously miss numerous claims to the contrary. Why cling to one specific reference and ignore so many opposing references?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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16-04-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
All,

I take away from your responses - showing me verses that you feel are contrary - that you clearly agree with me that the Romans 4 verses DO show salvation apart from works. My comment refers to Mormons or JWs - that they are not admitting that those verses say exactly what they say.

Understand that both we and they see the scriptures as univocal, where you see it as offering contradictory notions within. If you have an interest, we can look at James, the parables, etc. too, but let's not skip ahead.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-04-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(15-04-2015 02:26 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Hey Q - what is your interpretation of these verses?

James 2 New International Version (NIV)
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Have to love to selective verse picking to make yourself look smart (or even somewhat sane). Quoting the bible with atheists will get you nowhere.

Just to take Q's side on this particular point: I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction here. James 2 doesn't actually say someone will be barred from heaven for not helping. You could also jump to Matthew 15:19: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.". It is defensible to believe that people are "saved by grace alone" while still being called least in the kingdom of heaven for their dead faith.

But that said it is clearly wrong to say that doctrinal differences are either nonexistent or inconsequential within the church. Q, would you say that speaking in tongues is confirmation of the holy spirit and that those who do not speak in tongues are unsaved? Do you acknowledge that some read the same Bible and same verses as you but come to a different conclusion? Do you say they are simply wrong and you right? How could it be that two learned people both with a personal relationship with Jesus can come to different conclusions on a topic such as this?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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16-04-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(16-04-2015 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I take away from your responses - showing me verses that you feel are contrary - that you clearly agree with me that the Romans 4 verses DO show salvation apart from works. My comment refers to Mormons or JWs - that they are not admitting that those verses say exactly what they say.

Understand that both we and they see the scriptures as univocal, where you see it as offering contradictory notions within. If you have an interest, we can look at James, the parables, etc. too, but let's not skip ahead.

No, No, no, no you don't there the Q sanitarium! You flat out do not acknowledge the verse I posted. while still just focusing on the interpretation of the verse you quoted as being right. WTF is so hard with admitting there are multiple verses regarding faith, deeds, and works. Help me understand why you cannot see how the verse from James says that faith alone is not enough to be saved, that faith is dead without deeds. What is wrong with you - again address that friggin mental condition you suffer from ASAP!

We did not skip ahead with one more verse posting you idiot. We just skipped into very uncomfortable territory for you and your dishonesty. PUTZ

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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16-04-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(02-03-2015 09:54 AM)claywise Wrote:  The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
The thing about the devil concept.

It seems that the devil is working for the god.
Good people go to heaven (reward)
Bad people go to hell (punishment)

Without hell there would be no punishment. Why would the devil punish the bad if the devil was working against the god? Wouldn't the devil prefer to torture the good, because it seem that the god likes the good, so those are the people to be targeted.

Also, if the god requires people to believe rather than to know and if the devil was convincing people that god doesn't exist then doesn't this suit the god's agenda of selecting some people to go to heaven and putting the rest in hell based on belief?
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17-04-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(16-04-2015 09:50 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 02:26 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Hey Q - what is your interpretation of these verses?

James 2 New International Version (NIV)
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Have to love to selective verse picking to make yourself look smart (or even somewhat sane). Quoting the bible with atheists will get you nowhere.

Just to take Q's side on this particular point: I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction here. James 2 doesn't actually say someone will be barred from heaven for not helping. You could also jump to Matthew 15:19: "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.". It is defensible to believe that people are "saved by grace alone" while still being called least in the kingdom of heaven for their dead faith.

But that said it is clearly wrong to say that doctrinal differences are either nonexistent or inconsequential within the church. Q, would you say that speaking in tongues is confirmation of the holy spirit and that those who do not speak in tongues are unsaved? Do you acknowledge that some read the same Bible and same verses as you but come to a different conclusion? Do you say they are simply wrong and you right? How could it be that two learned people both with a personal relationship with Jesus can come to different conclusions on a topic such as this?

Is human nature an adequate answer? I spend time counseling other Christians who are hurting that God loves them... have you or I ever seen verses that the wrath of God abides upon born again Christians? I'm sure you might say there is no god but I simply believe as I wish to believe... so why can't I say that "I know the right doctrine but some of my brothers, whom I love most deeply, simply believe what they wish to believe despite the scripture..."?

re: Tongues, Paul says not all persons have every gift. A saved person in the Acts might receive tongues, might not. I would point my brethren to the fact that tongues are called a sign, not the sign or the only sign, of believers...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-04-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(16-04-2015 11:22 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I take away from your responses - showing me verses that you feel are contrary - that you clearly agree with me that the Romans 4 verses DO show salvation apart from works. My comment refers to Mormons or JWs - that they are not admitting that those verses say exactly what they say.

Understand that both we and they see the scriptures as univocal, where you see it as offering contradictory notions within. If you have an interest, we can look at James, the parables, etc. too, but let's not skip ahead.

No, No, no, no you don't there the Q sanitarium! You flat out do not acknowledge the verse I posted. while still just focusing on the interpretation of the verse you quoted as being right. WTF is so hard with admitting there are multiple verses regarding faith, deeds, and works. Help me understand why you cannot see how the verse from James says that faith alone is not enough to be saved, that faith is dead without deeds. What is wrong with you - again address that friggin mental condition you suffer from ASAP!

We did not skip ahead with one more verse posting you idiot. We just skipped into very uncomfortable territory for you and your dishonesty. PUTZ

I don't mind commenting on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread it this morning prior to seeing your post:

Directly before 2:14 and the passage in question, and I do mean DIRECTLY before, James makes a case that breaking any of the 613 laws makes a person a lawbreaker. Even Christians struggle with this concept so here's an analogy. How many of the following must a student do to get expelled from university?

* Deal drugs
* Plagiarize
* Cheat on exams
* Not pay their fees
* Vandalize campus property

Of course, the answer is only one offense against one law can get a person expelled--even imprisoned--as a lawbreaker. So James is saying either keep all 613 laws or admit you break the law... it would be super-weird to say in the next verses "You must have law-keeping (works/deeds) and faith also to be saved..."

Make no mistake, "works in the NT" are "works of the Mosaic Law" not helping little old ladies cross the street and so forth.

But I can use your interpretation. To really do the works per James, I can be like Abraham, who sacrificed Issac... wait! He did not!

...Or Rahab the harlot who lied to protect the spies just before the fall of Jericho.

Hmmmmm.... to be righteous per James 2, I have to either promise to sacrifice my son then not do so (that is, not keep an oath made to God) or be a prostitute who tells lies to others... but, you know, lies for good reasons, to protect others...

I think what James 2 is saying is that "outrageous" good deeds done in God's name are a sign of faith.

Remember also, it says specifically that when Abraham sacrificed Issac the word was fulfilled that Abraham trusted God and was considered saved... this verse/event did not occur when Issac was pseudo-sacrificed but when God first told Abraham there would be a son for him... some 30 years prior. Abraham had faith only in God 30 years before he "did a work that saved him" in the typical JW/Mormon/works reading...

What's your interpretation of the second half of James 2, please?

Thanks!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-04-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(16-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 09:54 AM)claywise Wrote:  The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
The thing about the devil concept.

It seems that the devil is working for the god.
Good people go to heaven (reward)
Bad people go to hell (punishment)

Without hell there would be no punishment. Why would the devil punish the bad if the devil was working against the god? Wouldn't the devil prefer to torture the good, because it seem that the god likes the good, so those are the people to be targeted.

Also, if the god requires people to believe rather than to know and if the devil was convincing people that god doesn't exist then doesn't this suit the god's agenda of selecting some people to go to heaven and putting the rest in hell based on belief?

The devil doesn't punish any person. Jesus metes out punishment instead. The devil DOES like to harm good, decent people, yes. He laughs at our addictions, our pain, our hurts, yes.

God's agenda is wider than humankind although He obviously exhibits His love for us via Jesus's atoning death. God is judging angels as well.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-04-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(17-04-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 11:22 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  No, No, no, no you don't there the Q sanitarium! You flat out do not acknowledge the verse I posted. while still just focusing on the interpretation of the verse you quoted as being right. WTF is so hard with admitting there are multiple verses regarding faith, deeds, and works. Help me understand why you cannot see how the verse from James says that faith alone is not enough to be saved, that faith is dead without deeds. What is wrong with you - again address that friggin mental condition you suffer from ASAP!

We did not skip ahead with one more verse posting you idiot. We just skipped into very uncomfortable territory for you and your dishonesty. PUTZ

I don't mind commenting on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread it this morning prior to seeing your post:

Directly before 2:14 and the passage in question, and I do mean DIRECTLY before, James makes a case that breaking any of the 613 laws makes a person a lawbreaker. Even Christians struggle with this concept so here's an analogy. How many of the following must a student do to get expelled from university?

* Deal drugs
* Plagiarize
* Cheat on exams
* Not pay their fees
* Vandalize campus property

Of course, the answer is only one offense against one law can get a person expelled--even imprisoned--as a lawbreaker. So James is saying either keep all 613 laws or admit you break the law... it would be super-weird to say in the next verses "You must have law-keeping (works/deeds) and faith also to be saved..."

Make no mistake, "works in the NT" are "works of the Mosaic Law" not helping little old ladies cross the street and so forth.

But I can use your interpretation. To really do the works per James, I can be like Abraham, who sacrificed Issac... wait! He did not!

...Or Rahab the harlot who lied to protect the spies just before the fall of Jericho.

Hmmmmm.... to be righteous per James 2, I have to either promise to sacrifice my son then not do so (that is, not keep an oath made to God) or be a prostitute who tells lies to others... but, you know, lies for good reasons, to protect others...

I think what James 2 is saying is that "outrageous" good deeds done in God's name are a sign of faith.

Remember also, it says specifically that when Abraham sacrificed Issac the word was fulfilled that Abraham trusted God and was considered saved... this verse/event did not occur when Issac was pseudo-sacrificed but when God first told Abraham there would be a son for him... some 30 years prior. Abraham had faith only in God 30 years before he "did a work that saved him" in the typical JW/Mormon/works reading...

What's your interpretation of the second half of James 2, please?

Thanks!

Spare me your preachy little lesson with one of your stupid analogies. So you just cannot admit what the verse says you need works and faith to be saved and that faith is dead without works. I could be dishonest and twist the verse that you posted about faith only leads to righteousness. There is not even anything in that verse about being saved - the James verse does!

I don't want to continue discussing specific verses since you will always play mental gymnastics, ignore the actual text and make the words say something to your liking. I should post your last reply in the "worlds greatest mental twisting and apologetics" dictonary.

Have fun thinking like a child in your fantasy land you dishonest and slimy weasel.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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