A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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17-04-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(17-04-2015 11:01 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-04-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't mind commenting on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread it this morning prior to seeing your post:

Directly before 2:14 and the passage in question, and I do mean DIRECTLY before, James makes a case that breaking any of the 613 laws makes a person a lawbreaker. Even Christians struggle with this concept so here's an analogy. How many of the following must a student do to get expelled from university?

* Deal drugs
* Plagiarize
* Cheat on exams
* Not pay their fees
* Vandalize campus property

Of course, the answer is only one offense against one law can get a person expelled--even imprisoned--as a lawbreaker. So James is saying either keep all 613 laws or admit you break the law... it would be super-weird to say in the next verses "You must have law-keeping (works/deeds) and faith also to be saved..."

Make no mistake, "works in the NT" are "works of the Mosaic Law" not helping little old ladies cross the street and so forth.

But I can use your interpretation. To really do the works per James, I can be like Abraham, who sacrificed Issac... wait! He did not!

...Or Rahab the harlot who lied to protect the spies just before the fall of Jericho.

Hmmmmm.... to be righteous per James 2, I have to either promise to sacrifice my son then not do so (that is, not keep an oath made to God) or be a prostitute who tells lies to others... but, you know, lies for good reasons, to protect others...

I think what James 2 is saying is that "outrageous" good deeds done in God's name are a sign of faith.

Remember also, it says specifically that when Abraham sacrificed Issac the word was fulfilled that Abraham trusted God and was considered saved... this verse/event did not occur when Issac was pseudo-sacrificed but when God first told Abraham there would be a son for him... some 30 years prior. Abraham had faith only in God 30 years before he "did a work that saved him" in the typical JW/Mormon/works reading...

What's your interpretation of the second half of James 2, please?

Thanks!

Spare me your preachy little lesson with one of your stupid analogies. So you just cannot admit what the verse says you need works and faith to be saved and that faith is dead without works. I could be dishonest and twist the verse that you posted about faith only leads to righteousness. There is not even anything in that verse about being saved - the James verse does!

I don't want to continue discussing specific verses since you will always play mental gymnastics, ignore the actual text and make the words say something to your liking. I should post your last reply in the "worlds greatest mental twisting and apologetics" dictonary.

Have fun thinking like a child in your fantasy land you dishonest and slimy weasel.

1. The Romans passage is certainly talking about salvation. The quotation which follows is David praising God that his sins or forgiven--this praise coming soon after his adulterous murder was uncovered publicly.

2. The James passage is speaking of our works which justify us in the sight of others--not God--only Jesus saves.

3. I'm sorry you are angry at me. It was not my intent to anger you by taking ten minutes to write to you some of the details on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread James 2 this morning simply because you raised the issues. Where is the anger coming from?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-04-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(17-04-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-04-2015 11:01 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Spare me your preachy little lesson with one of your stupid analogies. So you just cannot admit what the verse says you need works and faith to be saved and that faith is dead without works. I could be dishonest and twist the verse that you posted about faith only leads to righteousness. There is not even anything in that verse about being saved - the James verse does!

I don't want to continue discussing specific verses since you will always play mental gymnastics, ignore the actual text and make the words say something to your liking. I should post your last reply in the "worlds greatest mental twisting and apologetics" dictonary.

Have fun thinking like a child in your fantasy land you dishonest and slimy weasel.

1. The Romans passage is certainly talking about salvation. The quotation which follows is David praising God that his sins or forgiven--this praise coming soon after his adulterous murder was uncovered publicly.

2. The James passage is speaking of our works which justify us in the sight of others--not God--only Jesus saves.

3. I'm sorry you are angry at me. It was not my intent to anger you by taking ten minutes to write to you some of the details on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread James 2 this morning simply because you raised the issues. Where is the anger coming from?

Let's see, I am angered when I encounter someone who is a liar, who is dishonest, does not answer directly, and who plays word games (just to scratch the surface).

Oh, and both passages refer to salvation - jackass.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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20-04-2015, 10:19 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(17-04-2015 02:41 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-04-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The Romans passage is certainly talking about salvation. The quotation which follows is David praising God that his sins or forgiven--this praise coming soon after his adulterous murder was uncovered publicly.

2. The James passage is speaking of our works which justify us in the sight of others--not God--only Jesus saves.

3. I'm sorry you are angry at me. It was not my intent to anger you by taking ten minutes to write to you some of the details on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread James 2 this morning simply because you raised the issues. Where is the anger coming from?

Let's see, I am angered when I encounter someone who is a liar, who is dishonest, does not answer directly, and who plays word games (just to scratch the surface).

Oh, and both passages refer to salvation - jackass.

I do answer directly and patiently. I'm not asking anyone here for money or any support.

I'm suggesting to you that the correct rendering of the James passage is that works or deeds justify the individual in the sight of others. I was saved trusting in Jesus's death and resurrection. When I witness and do other things, other people know where I stand, which is different than me being inwardly or privately saved or at peace with God.

Also, the Bible says over 150 times some variation of "trust/believe in Jesus" to be saved. There are about four or so other passages that come up often when people are promoting works to be saved. James 2 is one I hear often from Catholics, JW's, Mormons...

Since you are a skeptic, I wonder whether your issue is that I won't admit some kind of perceived contradiction in the Bible? But I'm not being dishonest with you or doing anything intentionally to cause you to be angry with me.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-04-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(17-04-2015 02:41 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-04-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The Romans passage is certainly talking about salvation. The quotation which follows is David praising God that his sins or forgiven--this praise coming soon after his adulterous murder was uncovered publicly.

2. The James passage is speaking of our works which justify us in the sight of others--not God--only Jesus saves.

3. I'm sorry you are angry at me. It was not my intent to anger you by taking ten minutes to write to you some of the details on James 2. As a matter of fact, I reread James 2 this morning simply because you raised the issues. Where is the anger coming from?

Let's see, I am angered when I encounter someone who is a liar, who is dishonest, does not answer directly, and who plays word games (just to scratch the surface).

Oh, and both passages refer to salvation - jackass.

And then Q acts like he's so innocent when he acts like an ass. You got him figured out though, he lives in a Qlueless presuppositional fantasy land, he's the reason why aliens won't talk to us.

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-04-2015, 12:25 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(20-04-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I was saved trusting in Jesus's death and resurrection.
Do you know you were saved or are you assuming?
If you know, then how do you know?
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21-04-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(20-04-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I was saved trusting in Jesus's death and resurrection.

Saved from what? Yourself? 'Cause that would actually kinda sorta make some sense.

#sigh
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21-04-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-04-2015 09:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I was saved trusting in Jesus's death and resurrection.

Saved from what? Yourself? 'Cause that would actually kinda sorta make some sense.

Repeating. There are 150-plus verses supporting my doctrinal stance, and four or five snippets that seem to disagree.

"Saved" is a little Bible euphemism for "going to Heaven and not Hell", for assurance of same. Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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21-04-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-04-2015 02:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-04-2015 09:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Saved from what? Yourself? 'Cause that would actually kinda sorta make some sense.

Repeating. There are 150-plus verses supporting my doctrinal stance, and four or five snippets that seem to disagree.

"Saved" is a little Bible euphemism for "going to Heaven and not Hell", for assurance of same. Thanks.

Other than the work of fiction you call "the Bible", what evidence is there for the existence of either Heaven or Hell? Keep in mind that the Bible itself is a claim, not evidence.
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21-04-2015, 03:31 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2015 10:47 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-04-2015 02:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-04-2015 09:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Saved from what? Yourself? 'Cause that would actually kinda sorta make some sense.

Repeating. There are 150-plus verses supporting my doctrinal stance, and four or five snippets that seem to disagree.

"Saved" is a little Bible euphemism for "going to Heaven and not Hell", for assurance of same. Thanks.

"I'm going to heaven and not hell" is a little euphemism for "I lack the metaphysical maturity to construct my own worldview so I have to rely on others to provide it". And you're welcome.

#sigh
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21-04-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Q Cunt is Qunt.

I wonder why Q Cunt brings out the bully in me. I don't read his bloviations and pabulum, but do see snippets in others' responses and every time, it just makes me want to follow him around the playground and shove him onto his smug little face every time he tries to stand up.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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