A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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06-05-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-05-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 12:02 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Obviously the Tower of Babel was never discovered. It was just a story to "explain" how languages developed. If you want to see the real root cause for how languages developed from one to many, look no further than the development of the Romance Languages from Latin.

Interesting thing about the Tower of Babel. In the bible, it's a tower to the sky. But let's get real. We have thousands upon thousands of towers like this today. Our technology alone is beyond anything that anyone back then could have imagined. So why wouldn't God have intervened in the world today to stop us from creating GMOs, sequencing DNA, etc. I mean c'mon, being able to manipulate the building blocks of life is WAYYYYYYYY MOOOOOOOOOOOOORE "god-like" behavior than simply building a giant tower.

1. The tower's construction--and that of the whole city around it--was halted. Please when arguing the Bible with me, actually read it. I try to careful here with you in the same way--but understand most of my Christian friends say things all the time like, "Yeah, atheists argue about the Bible but they neither read it nor comprehend it." Break this illusion for them, if you would...

2. The tower's legacy has been discovered etymologically if you will. Languages have a root ancestry. I'm unaware of language experts who say they languages evolved from multiple root sources but rather, prevailing theory says one root.

1. The argument about atheists not having read the bible isn't true for a whole many of them, random interactions are a horrible data base to judge on. Once again, personal experience of that type is horrible for acquiring actual data.

The point being, why is God not halting men creating gigantic skyscrapers or going into space? And don't deny there aren't plenty of people involved with those actions who still thought they were reaching to the heavens and god when doing that. If your literal take would be it was just against the attitude or mindset of testing god, then you'd think he may dispose of that communication growth with technology rising again.

2. Wouldn't make sense evolutionary if that was the case, of course that's the case and always was.

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06-05-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-05-2015 02:16 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 01:08 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  [Image: f26.jpg]

This photo of me looks rather like your avatar. We are growing closer!

What can I say, Captains Outfits are very comfortable. I feel they'll be all the rage in the future.

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06-05-2015, 07:58 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-05-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 12:02 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Obviously the Tower of Babel was never discovered. It was just a story to "explain" how languages developed. If you want to see the real root cause for how languages developed from one to many, look no further than the development of the Romance Languages from Latin.

Interesting thing about the Tower of Babel. In the bible, it's a tower to the sky. But let's get real. We have thousands upon thousands of towers like this today. Our technology alone is beyond anything that anyone back then could have imagined. So why wouldn't God have intervened in the world today to stop us from creating GMOs, sequencing DNA, etc. I mean c'mon, being able to manipulate the building blocks of life is WAYYYYYYYY MOOOOOOOOOOOOORE "god-like" behavior than simply building a giant tower.

1. The tower's construction--and that of the whole city around it--was halted. Please when arguing the Bible with me, actually read it. I try to careful here with you in the same way--but understand most of my Christian friends say things all the time like, "Yeah, atheists argue about the Bible but they neither read it nor comprehend it." Break this illusion for them, if you would...

2. The tower's legacy has been discovered etymologically if you will. Languages have a root ancestry. I'm unaware of language experts who say they languages evolved from multiple root sources but rather, prevailing theory says one root.

That's rich. Throughout this thread and elsewhere I have not seen you point out to others that the tower of babel and the surrounding city was unfinished. So while I was well aware of that, I simply stated the tower of babel. Maybe if you're going to get down to brass tacks, you should bitch out bible editors for being so lazy about that section of the bible and using the subtitle "The Unfinished Tower of Babel and the Unfinished Surrounding Town". In the bibles I'm familiar with, I simply referred to it as the Tower of Babel as I've seen plenty of times in plenty of different bibles. I think you were trying to be a petulant ass. See below:

Quote:Chapter 11
Tower of Babel.
1 The whole world had the same language and the same words. 2 When they were migrating from the east, they came to a valley in the land of Shinar[b] and settled there. 3 They said to one another, “Come, let us mold bricks and harden them with fire.” They used bricks for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the sky,[c] and so make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered all over the earth.”

5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the people had built. 6 Then the Lord said: If now, while they are one people and all have the same language, they have started to do this, nothing they presume to do will be out of their reach. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that no one will understand the speech of another. 8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel,[d] because there the Lord confused the speech of all the world. From there the Lord scattered them over all the earth.

1) While my views are agnostic at the moment, I am still a member of a Christian Church denomination that you do not care for. I have read the bible, but I do not know it well enough to sling verses. However, I am very familiar with the bible and I am not afraid to use it for study purposes.

2) The legacy of the story has been seen etymologically? You can't be serious. I can tell you that 5000 years ago an advanced alien race choose to conduct language experiments on primitive beings with the hope of discovering insights into their own development, so they randomly chose subjects, divided them according to groups and imprinted upon the brains of each group a distinct and newly created language that conformed to the physical limitations of mankind. I have an alternative theory to the tower of babel that is equally as valid because neither of us can prove our cases.

Look, let's come up with a much simpler and more likely reason for language variation. When homo sapiens came out of Africa, there was likely a single, common language. As these groups of homo sapiens left Africa - likely in multiple waves - they spread out and went their separate ways. What was once a common language will over time evolve with the various peoples. To add to the complexity, the original language was likely a lot simpler and less useful at the time, so as these waves moved out and knowing we have rational minds the shortcomings of the language were fixed, i.e. the language evolved to the needs of the people as groups became tribes, tribes became villages, then towns, then city states, etc. etc.... And bear in mind while the earliest humans first left Africa, the people who stayed behind with the original language probably evolved it themselves. For the love of all that is holy, you have the blueprint for how a unified language can evolve into a number of distinct languages over time the way Latin was the language from which French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian, and the other smaller dialects that developed due to peoples being isolated from each other.
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06-05-2015, 08:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2015 08:46 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-05-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. The tower's legacy has been discovered etymologically if you will. Languages have a root ancestry. I'm unaware of language experts who say they languages evolved from multiple root sources but rather, prevailing theory says one root.

Citation needed.

The archeological evidence refutes the Tower of Babel myth.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-05-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-05-2015 08:34 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. The tower's legacy has been discovered etymologically if you will. Languages have a root ancestry. I'm unaware of language experts who say they languages evolved from multiple root sources but rather, prevailing theory says one root.

Citation needed.

The archeological evidence refutes the Tower of Babel myth.

What archaeological evidence, please?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-05-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(06-05-2015 07:58 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The tower's construction--and that of the whole city around it--was halted. Please when arguing the Bible with me, actually read it. I try to careful here with you in the same way--but understand most of my Christian friends say things all the time like, "Yeah, atheists argue about the Bible but they neither read it nor comprehend it." Break this illusion for them, if you would...

2. The tower's legacy has been discovered etymologically if you will. Languages have a root ancestry. I'm unaware of language experts who say they languages evolved from multiple root sources but rather, prevailing theory says one root.

That's rich. Throughout this thread and elsewhere I have not seen you point out to others that the tower of babel and the surrounding city was unfinished. So while I was well aware of that, I simply stated the tower of babel. Maybe if you're going to get down to brass tacks, you should bitch out bible editors for being so lazy about that section of the bible and using the subtitle "The Unfinished Tower of Babel and the Unfinished Surrounding Town". In the bibles I'm familiar with, I simply referred to it as the Tower of Babel as I've seen plenty of times in plenty of different bibles. I think you were trying to be a petulant ass. See below:

Quote:Chapter 11
Tower of Babel.
1 The whole world had the same language and the same words. 2 When they were migrating from the east, they came to a valley in the land of Shinar[b] and settled there. 3 They said to one another, “Come, let us mold bricks and harden them with fire.” They used bricks for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the sky,[c] and so make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered all over the earth.”

5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the people had built. 6 Then the Lord said: If now, while they are one people and all have the same language, they have started to do this, nothing they presume to do will be out of their reach. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that no one will understand the speech of another. 8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel,[d] because there the Lord confused the speech of all the world. From there the Lord scattered them over all the earth.

1) While my views are agnostic at the moment, I am still a member of a Christian Church denomination that you do not care for. I have read the bible, but I do not know it well enough to sling verses. However, I am very familiar with the bible and I am not afraid to use it for study purposes.

2) The legacy of the story has been seen etymologically? You can't be serious. I can tell you that 5000 years ago an advanced alien race choose to conduct language experiments on primitive beings with the hope of discovering insights into their own development, so they randomly chose subjects, divided them according to groups and imprinted upon the brains of each group a distinct and newly created language that conformed to the physical limitations of mankind. I have an alternative theory to the tower of babel that is equally as valid because neither of us can prove our cases.

Look, let's come up with a much simpler and more likely reason for language variation. When homo sapiens came out of Africa, there was likely a single, common language. As these groups of homo sapiens left Africa - likely in multiple waves - they spread out and went their separate ways. What was once a common language will over time evolve with the various peoples. To add to the complexity, the original language was likely a lot simpler and less useful at the time, so as these waves moved out and knowing we have rational minds the shortcomings of the language were fixed, i.e. the language evolved to the needs of the people as groups became tribes, tribes became villages, then towns, then city states, etc. etc.... And bear in mind while the earliest humans first left Africa, the people who stayed behind with the original language probably evolved it themselves. For the love of all that is holy, you have the blueprint for how a unified language can evolve into a number of distinct languages over time the way Latin was the language from which French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian, and the other smaller dialects that developed due to peoples being isolated from each other.

You're begging the question of when did people leave Africa? Roots of languages have been traced to a source that is some thousands, not 100,000 or 1,000,000 years old. Again, this is where the Bible states something that science agrees with...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-05-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(07-05-2015 12:38 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 07:58 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  That's rich. Throughout this thread and elsewhere I have not seen you point out to others that the tower of babel and the surrounding city was unfinished. So while I was well aware of that, I simply stated the tower of babel. Maybe if you're going to get down to brass tacks, you should bitch out bible editors for being so lazy about that section of the bible and using the subtitle "The Unfinished Tower of Babel and the Unfinished Surrounding Town". In the bibles I'm familiar with, I simply referred to it as the Tower of Babel as I've seen plenty of times in plenty of different bibles. I think you were trying to be a petulant ass. See below:


1) While my views are agnostic at the moment, I am still a member of a Christian Church denomination that you do not care for. I have read the bible, but I do not know it well enough to sling verses. However, I am very familiar with the bible and I am not afraid to use it for study purposes.

2) The legacy of the story has been seen etymologically? You can't be serious. I can tell you that 5000 years ago an advanced alien race choose to conduct language experiments on primitive beings with the hope of discovering insights into their own development, so they randomly chose subjects, divided them according to groups and imprinted upon the brains of each group a distinct and newly created language that conformed to the physical limitations of mankind. I have an alternative theory to the tower of babel that is equally as valid because neither of us can prove our cases.

Look, let's come up with a much simpler and more likely reason for language variation. When homo sapiens came out of Africa, there was likely a single, common language. As these groups of homo sapiens left Africa - likely in multiple waves - they spread out and went their separate ways. What was once a common language will over time evolve with the various peoples. To add to the complexity, the original language was likely a lot simpler and less useful at the time, so as these waves moved out and knowing we have rational minds the shortcomings of the language were fixed, i.e. the language evolved to the needs of the people as groups became tribes, tribes became villages, then towns, then city states, etc. etc.... And bear in mind while the earliest humans first left Africa, the people who stayed behind with the original language probably evolved it themselves. For the love of all that is holy, you have the blueprint for how a unified language can evolve into a number of distinct languages over time the way Latin was the language from which French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian, and the other smaller dialects that developed due to peoples being isolated from each other.

You're begging the question of when did people leave Africa? Roots of languages have been traced to a source that is some thousands, not 100,000 or 1,000,000 years old. Again, this is where the Bible states something that science agrees with...

The earliest know written records are 5000 years old in Sumeria (3300 BC - 3000 BC). Are you sure you are not referring to written language? Or is Sumerian the mother tongue of origin in your opinion?
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07-05-2015, 02:06 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2015 02:10 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(07-05-2015 12:37 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-05-2015 08:34 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Citation needed.

The archeological evidence refutes the Tower of Babel myth.

What archaeological evidence, please?

These:

Egyptian, Sumerian, Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hurrian all predate the founding of the city of Babylon.


I will also note that Akkadian developed after the fall of the Sumerian empire, so it's an example of a set of languages existing and developing before the founding of the city of Babylon in 1849 B.C.

Language developed naturally as people and culture spread across the Mesopotamian region, not as the result of a mythical confusion of languages by Enki, YHWH or any other deity.

Letter in Sumerian cuneiform sent by the high-priest Lu'enna, informing him the king of Lagash of his son's death in battle, c. 2400 BC

[Image: Letter_Luenna_Louvre_AO4238.jpg]

Seal impression from the tomb of Seth-Peribsen, containing the oldest known complete sentence in Egyptian, c. 2690 BC

[Image: Peribsen2.JPG]

Now, where's that citation?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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08-05-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
This would be a better Avatar for Q.

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Evidence is futile.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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08-05-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(07-05-2015 02:06 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(07-05-2015 12:37 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What archaeological evidence, please?

These:

Egyptian, Sumerian, Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hurrian all predate the founding of the city of Babylon.


I will also note that Akkadian developed after the fall of the Sumerian empire, so it's an example of a set of languages existing and developing before the founding of the city of Babylon in 1849 B.C.

Language developed naturally as people and culture spread across the Mesopotamian region, not as the result of a mythical confusion of languages by Enki, YHWH or any other deity.

Letter in Sumerian cuneiform sent by the high-priest Lu'enna, informing him the king of Lagash of his son's death in battle, c. 2400 BC

[Image: Letter_Luenna_Louvre_AO4238.jpg]

Seal impression from the tomb of Seth-Peribsen, containing the oldest known complete sentence in Egyptian, c. 2690 BC

[Image: Peribsen2.JPG]

Now, where's that citation?

From memory--though I guess we could look in Genesis 11--Babel was somewhere on the plains of Shinar, which city's construction halted as the tower was stopped and people were scattered. Babylon may have been named after Babel.

Repeating, do you have archaeology of an unfinished tower in the region you feel is Babel? Because that would be case for the Bible's truth--or perhaps you have an alternative interpretation.

Of course, I would say that if you insist Babylon was named after Babel, you'd be making a case for the Bible as accurate (in that one instance).

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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