A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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12-05-2015, 05:19 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(11-05-2015 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I can certainly accept that languages stem from one root prior to the inception of the Babylonian empire. Babel is the first/earliest city recorded in the Bible post-Flood.

I see what this is, you created your own version of the Babel myth, one in which human language did not originate from the Tower of Babel event, correct?

If you're going to engage in any kind of dialogue in good faith on these forums, then you need to be open and state up-front what you believe, especially if it's another bizarre mutated form of a standard biblical myth.

Playing 20- questions to weed out your bizarre beliefs just fosters distrust in anything you have to say and you as a person.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-05-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(11-05-2015 10:58 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 10:52 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  IAlso, who are the "we" that is referred to in the Babel story? Is it God talking to his angels? Or is it a link to a polytheistic past? Because it seems like a lot of Genesis seems to imply that the writers believed that other gods existed and were every bit as real as Yaweh or El (depending on the source).

I vote for "link to a polytheistic past". However, Catholics and other trinitarian Christians will tell you that this is evidence of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) -- you know, God with a multiple personality disorder.

I think some would argue that it's a revealing of the trinity, and I've seen that argument made that the trinity is alluded to in the bible and used to believe that myself. In this case though, I'd be surprised if any Catholic apologist who is good at argument would go that route with this particular story, since I believe virtually every Catholic religious leader thinks of this story as allegory.

I believe that there are A LOT of priests and ministers out there who know these stories are myths but will preach on them to the masses as if they were real events.
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12-05-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-05-2015 05:19 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-05-2015 10:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I can certainly accept that languages stem from one root prior to the inception of the Babylonian empire. Babel is the first/earliest city recorded in the Bible post-Flood.

I see what this is, you created your own version of the Babel myth, one in which human language did not originate from the Tower of Babel event, correct?

If you're going to engage in any kind of dialogue in good faith on these forums, then you need to be open and state up-front what you believe, especially if it's another bizarre mutated form of a standard biblical myth.

Playing 20- questions to weed out your bizarre beliefs just fosters distrust in anything you have to say and you as a person.

I believe language families stemmed from the Tower of Babel event. Certainly.

I guess I ought to rephrase my objection this way--you are now saying there was no literal Tower of Babel but then chose to give dates for archaeological findings in the ANE as proof of... what, exactly?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-05-2015, 08:00 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-05-2015 07:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 05:19 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I see what this is, you created your own version of the Babel myth, one in which human language did not originate from the Tower of Babel event, correct?

If you're going to engage in any kind of dialogue in good faith on these forums, then you need to be open and state up-front what you believe, especially if it's another bizarre mutated form of a standard biblical myth.

Playing 20- questions to weed out your bizarre beliefs just fosters distrust in anything you have to say and you as a person.

I believe language families stemmed from the Tower of Babel event. Certainly.

I guess I ought to rephrase my objection this way--you are now saying there was no literal Tower of Babel but then chose to give dates for archaeological findings in the ANE as proof of... what, exactly?

Good catch. The poor guy is trying to show you dates and provide logic showing that the tower of babel is a myth. You put him in the unenviable position of proving a negative. In reality, it's YOU who should be providing proofs that the tower of babel is real and historical event.
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12-05-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-05-2015 07:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 05:19 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I see what this is, you created your own version of the Babel myth, one in which human language did not originate from the Tower of Babel event, correct?

If you're going to engage in any kind of dialogue in good faith on these forums, then you need to be open and state up-front what you believe, especially if it's another bizarre mutated form of a standard biblical myth.

Playing 20- questions to weed out your bizarre beliefs just fosters distrust in anything you have to say and you as a person.

I believe language families stemmed from the Tower of Babel event. Certainly.

I guess I ought to rephrase my objection this way--you are now saying there was no literal Tower of Babel but then chose to give dates for archaeological findings in the ANE as proof of... what, exactly?

That languages existed before the alleged Tower of Babel (2200 BC), also the myth asserted Nimrod founded the cities Uruk and Akkad, this is false and chronologically impossible, those cities were founded over 2600 years apart.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-05-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-05-2015 01:28 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 07:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I believe language families stemmed from the Tower of Babel event. Certainly.

I guess I ought to rephrase my objection this way--you are now saying there was no literal Tower of Babel but then chose to give dates for archaeological findings in the ANE as proof of... what, exactly?

That languages existed before the alleged Tower of Babel (2200 BC), also the myth asserted Nimrod founded the cities Uruk and Akkad, this is false and chronologically impossible, those cities were founded over 2600 years apart.

1. I didn't say the tower is circa 2200 BCE.

2. We both know prehistory can only be determined by carbon dating, since we don't have written documents before 3000 BCE. Things like carved bones and etc. are subject to C14 dating.

Why don't I say this? I think the Flood was maybe 3000 BCE or so, give or take, the genealogies can only be used with certainty if you know when Abraham and etc. walked the Earth, and neither of us know those dates to a certainty. The tower was soon after, along with the inception of Sumeria and all those Mesopotamian Bible folk. Even the Gilgamesh stuff comes after 2700 BCE or so, and I've noted that it and other epics have the ark coming to rest atop a mountain, so there's documentary evidence of a universal flood...

3. Where does it say in the Bible that Nimrod founded "Uruk" and Akkad? It says in the Bible these places--Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in Shinar. Found a road sign reading "30 stadia to Calneh" or "Welcome to Erech. Population 30 grandsons of Noah. Brought to you by the Kiwanis Club." have we?

Give me a break! Or are you going to tell me they found a burial site in one of these towns with a sarcophagus carved with "Here lies Nimrod. Hated God. Now he's stiff as a rod"?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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13-05-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-05-2015 09:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 01:28 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  That languages existed before the alleged Tower of Babel (2200 BC), also the myth asserted Nimrod founded the cities Uruk and Akkad, this is false and chronologically impossible, those cities were founded over 2600 years apart.

1. I didn't say the tower is circa 2200 BCE.

2. We both know prehistory can only be determined by carbon dating, since we don't have written documents before 3000 BCE. Things like carved bones and etc. are subject to C14 dating.

Why don't I say this? I think the Flood was maybe 3000 BCE or so, give or take, the genealogies can only be used with certainty if you know when Abraham and etc. walked the Earth, and neither of us know those dates to a certainty. The tower was soon after, along with the inception of Sumeria and all those Mesopotamian Bible folk. Even the Gilgamesh stuff comes after 2700 BCE or so, and I've noted that it and other epics have the ark coming to rest atop a mountain, so there's documentary evidence of a universal flood...

3. Where does it say in the Bible that Nimrod founded "Uruk" and Akkad? It says in the Bible these places--Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in Shinar. Found a road sign reading "30 stadia to Calneh" or "Welcome to Erech. Population 30 grandsons of Noah. Brought to you by the Kiwanis Club." have we?

Give me a break! Or are you going to tell me they found a burial site in one of these towns with a sarcophagus carved with "Here lies Nimrod. Hated God. Now he's stiff as a rod"?

Yes, other people make that statement of Babel based on their study of the texts dates. You're not the arbiter of perfect interpretation or of a stance where what you claim is right is the only thing someone should accept on hermeneutics.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-05-2015, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2015 11:00 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-05-2015 09:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-05-2015 01:28 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  That languages existed before the alleged Tower of Babel (2200 BC), also the myth asserted Nimrod founded the cities Uruk and Akkad, this is false and chronologically impossible, those cities were founded over 2600 years apart.

1. I didn't say the tower is circa 2200 BCE.

2. We both know prehistory can only be determined by carbon dating, since we don't have written documents before 3000 BCE. Things like carved bones and etc. are subject to C14 dating.

Why don't I say this? I think the Flood was maybe 3000 BCE or so, give or take, the genealogies can only be used with certainty if you know when Abraham and etc. walked the Earth, and neither of us know those dates to a certainty. The tower was soon after, along with the inception of Sumeria and all those Mesopotamian Bible folk. Even the Gilgamesh stuff comes after 2700 BCE or so, and I've noted that it and other epics have the ark coming to rest atop a mountain, so there's documentary evidence of a universal flood...

3. Where does it say in the Bible that Nimrod founded "Uruk" and Akkad? It says in the Bible these places--Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in Shinar. Found a road sign reading "30 stadia to Calneh" or "Welcome to Erech. Population 30 grandsons of Noah. Brought to you by the Kiwanis Club." have we?

Give me a break! Or are you going to tell me they found a burial site in one of these towns with a sarcophagus carved with "Here lies Nimrod. Hated God. Now he's stiff as a rod"?

Here we go:

Genesis 10:10-11:
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city

So let's go over the list of cities:

Babel/Babylon founded in 1894 BC

Erech built/settled around 5000 BC, one myth has Gilgamesh as the founder.

Ninevah settled around 6000 BC and notable prominence in 3000 BC


Accad founded/settled around 2350-2050 BC


Calneh -unknown

Resen -unknown


I left verse 11 in there because it references Asshur, the son of Shem and cousin of Nimrod, he would've obviously been a contemporary of Nimrod and this helps specify dates and timelines based on two contemporaries.

Now let's go through the cities that Asshur founded:

Ninevah founded around 6000 BC

Rehoboth -unknown

Calah - founded in 1263-1234 BC by Shalmaneser I


So here we have date ranges for these cities of 6000 BC -1234 BC, a range of 4766 years! This is the archeology that you claim doesn't refute the bible.

I guess I'm confused, the bible says certain people founded these cities (they didn't) and then it gives impossible date ranges. Unless you would like to assert Nimrod lived around 4800 years? I suppose that would help resolve this craziness, sure, go right ahead and do that Q.

Perhaps these convoluted dates need to be resolved before even considering the Babel myth to be real. You do convoluted extremely well Q, so I leave it in your capable hands.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-05-2015, 01:34 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-05-2015 10:56 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 09:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. I didn't say the tower is circa 2200 BCE.

2. We both know prehistory can only be determined by carbon dating, since we don't have written documents before 3000 BCE. Things like carved bones and etc. are subject to C14 dating.

Why don't I say this? I think the Flood was maybe 3000 BCE or so, give or take, the genealogies can only be used with certainty if you know when Abraham and etc. walked the Earth, and neither of us know those dates to a certainty. The tower was soon after, along with the inception of Sumeria and all those Mesopotamian Bible folk. Even the Gilgamesh stuff comes after 2700 BCE or so, and I've noted that it and other epics have the ark coming to rest atop a mountain, so there's documentary evidence of a universal flood...

3. Where does it say in the Bible that Nimrod founded "Uruk" and Akkad? It says in the Bible these places--Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in Shinar. Found a road sign reading "30 stadia to Calneh" or "Welcome to Erech. Population 30 grandsons of Noah. Brought to you by the Kiwanis Club." have we?

Give me a break! Or are you going to tell me they found a burial site in one of these towns with a sarcophagus carved with "Here lies Nimrod. Hated God. Now he's stiff as a rod"?

Here we go:

Genesis 10:10-11:
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city

So let's go over the list of cities:

Babel/Babylon founded in 1894 BC

Erech built/settled around 5000 BC, one myth has Gilgamesh as the founder.

Ninevah settled around 6000 BC and notable prominence in 3000 BC


Accad founded/settled around 2350-2050 BC


Calneh -unknown

Resen -unknown


I left verse 11 in there because it references Asshur, the son of Shem and cousin of Nimrod, he would've obviously been a contemporary of Nimrod and this helps specify dates and timelines based on two contemporaries.

Now let's go through the cities that Asshur founded:

Ninevah founded around 6000 BC

Rehoboth -unknown

Calah - founded in 1263-1234 BC by Shalmaneser I


So here we have date ranges for these cities of 6000 BC -1234 BC, a range of 4766 years! This is the archeology that you claim doesn't refute the bible.

I guess I'm confused, the bible says certain people founded these cities (they didn't) and then it gives impossible date ranges. Unless you would like to assert Nimrod lived around 4800 years? I suppose that would help resolve this craziness, sure, go right ahead and do that Q.

Perhaps these convoluted dates need to be resolved before even considering the Babel myth to be real. You do convoluted extremely well Q, so I leave it in your capable hands.

It would be helpful to mention this too, the J source wrote the Tower of Babel myth as well as large parts of Genesis chapter 2-10, the P source intersperses their material with the J source with a few contributions from the redactor "R" source.

The creation myth, the flood myth and the Tower of Babel myth were mostly done by J with P parroting J, including the ridiculous sophistry of the Nephilim. They also team up to create the myth of Moses, this dynamic duo prance about throughout the Old Testament throwing one tall-tale after another into the pages of these books.


If J is such a terrible source for truth, creating ridiculous myths and falsehoods that are simply parroted by P, then what does that say about the bible and the god concept that they are creating?

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-05-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(13-05-2015 10:56 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 09:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. I didn't say the tower is circa 2200 BCE.

2. We both know prehistory can only be determined by carbon dating, since we don't have written documents before 3000 BCE. Things like carved bones and etc. are subject to C14 dating.

Why don't I say this? I think the Flood was maybe 3000 BCE or so, give or take, the genealogies can only be used with certainty if you know when Abraham and etc. walked the Earth, and neither of us know those dates to a certainty. The tower was soon after, along with the inception of Sumeria and all those Mesopotamian Bible folk. Even the Gilgamesh stuff comes after 2700 BCE or so, and I've noted that it and other epics have the ark coming to rest atop a mountain, so there's documentary evidence of a universal flood...

3. Where does it say in the Bible that Nimrod founded "Uruk" and Akkad? It says in the Bible these places--Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in Shinar. Found a road sign reading "30 stadia to Calneh" or "Welcome to Erech. Population 30 grandsons of Noah. Brought to you by the Kiwanis Club." have we?

Give me a break! Or are you going to tell me they found a burial site in one of these towns with a sarcophagus carved with "Here lies Nimrod. Hated God. Now he's stiff as a rod"?

Here we go:

Genesis 10:10-11:
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city

So let's go over the list of cities:

Babel/Babylon founded in 1894 BC

Erech built/settled around 5000 BC, one myth has Gilgamesh as the founder.

Ninevah settled around 6000 BC and notable prominence in 3000 BC


Accad founded/settled around 2350-2050 BC


Calneh -unknown

Resen -unknown


I left verse 11 in there because it references Asshur, the son of Shem and cousin of Nimrod, he would've obviously been a contemporary of Nimrod and this helps specify dates and timelines based on two contemporaries.

Now let's go through the cities that Asshur founded:

Ninevah founded around 6000 BC

Rehoboth -unknown

Calah - founded in 1263-1234 BC by Shalmaneser I


So here we have date ranges for these cities of 6000 BC -1234 BC, a range of 4766 years! This is the archeology that you claim doesn't refute the bible.

I guess I'm confused, the bible says certain people founded these cities (they didn't) and then it gives impossible date ranges. Unless you would like to assert Nimrod lived around 4800 years? I suppose that would help resolve this craziness, sure, go right ahead and do that Q.

Perhaps these convoluted dates need to be resolved before even considering the Babel myth to be real. You do convoluted extremely well Q, so I leave it in your capable hands.

Please actually read my posts before responding. I had just prior written:

Quote:We both know prehistory can only be determined by carbon dating, since we don't have written documents before 3000 BCE. Things like carved bones and etc. are subject to C14 dating.

Carbon dating is fraught with issues. I can accept, for example, that Akkad, which is mentioned in cuneiform tablets, is the biblical Akkad archaeologists found, but the dating is specious. The one city that you mentioned in "modern" history is dated close to what date?

Quote:I think the Flood was maybe 3000 BCE or so, give or take, the genealogies can only be used with certainty if you know when Abraham and etc. walked the Earth

You are helping me to make my case.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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