A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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03-03-2015, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2015 10:34 AM by claywise.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(03-03-2015 08:29 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I know you're being sarcastic....

Why anyone post-Enlightenment would accept that is beyond me.

and then

Not only do I understand how people can—and do—think differently than I do, I make it a point to take their thinking seriously.

You contradicted yourself... so which one is it? Just saying... again, constructive criticism.

Oh yeah... and why do you keep quoting "chosen" when talking about me. I've don't use that word to describe my Calvinism.

You are making assumptions that are not correct.

1) I'm not being sarcastic—not even with the "chosen" comments. You are welcome to overlay your interpretation and assume intentions, but none of this was written in a spirit of sarcasm.

2) You are cherry-picking to suit your critical needs here. I made a statement ("Why anyone post-Enlightenment....") that, to me, expressed an opinion without rancor, but I accepted that you and perhaps others could read it otherwise. So I came back with a second, non-sarcastic, sincere explanation of my position.

3) To me, taking someone's thinking seriously doesn't mean I have to accept or pretend to accept everyone's beliefs as equally valid, according to my understanding (in the hilarious mock-rocumentary "This Is Spinal Tap," the character David St. Hubbins says, "I believe virtually everything I read and I think that makes me much more of a selective human.")

4) I honestly don't see the terrible contradiction between the two statements you cite, which are really quite different. In one, I am expressing my opinion that, based on the foregoing (which you do not cite), I am registering my surprise that people who rely on the validity of evidence-based science, applied science and technology every day hold strong beliefs based on—and this is where the thread begins—non-material, non-evidence-based faith. I find that surprising and contradictory. But is that statement as insulting as you seem to take it? Meanwhile, the second statement simply says—I'm referring to the fact that I'm a journalist, by the way—that I take people's thinking and beliefs seriously, even if I don't agree; indeed, that's been an integral part of my career since day one. Others will tell me if I'm off-base here, but again, I don't see any glaring contradiction. Surely I'm allowed to reach conclusions of my own, even when taking others' ideas and beliefs seriously.

5) It's an atheist site. I was a Christian believer for 80+ percent of my life and it took me a good, long time to become comfortable with the deep realization that I am not a believer (not a "hard" atheist; call me an agnostic atheist). When I come to this forum, I've let my hair down just a bit (in a way I can't do in my working life). In my public life, and even commenting online, I'm not into name calling; here, I've allowed myself to be just a little snarky (for example, I recently chose to officially ignore one poster who just ... bugs me, and I leveled some pretty critical comments at him).

All that said, looking at the comments that have so unsettled you, I don't see the transgressions you do. I do, however, see you reading into them in ways that, whatever your certainty, are not valid.

P.S. I actually find the idea that I am not among "the chosen" to be a relief. It would explain a lot and, even if the consequence is roasting on a devil's spit for eternity, lets me off the hook in this life. If God exists and indeed designates "chosen," then those of us unchosen—who not only do not believe, but cannot—aren't responsible. That said, those convinced of their own chosen-ness seem rather less than humble, to me.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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03-03-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Fair enough.

I still don't get why you keep using "chosen", though.

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03-03-2015, 10:57 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(03-03-2015 10:43 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fair enough.

I still don't get why you keep using "chosen", though.

you mean chosen, the word from the dictionary ? chosen, the chosen one from star wars ? or chosen, the mysterious alien race from Firefall bent on the usual genocide and extinction of the human race ?

homage to :


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03-03-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(03-03-2015 10:57 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 10:43 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fair enough.

I still don't get why you keep using "chosen", though.

you mean chosen, the word from the dictionary ? chosen, the chosen one from star wars ? or chosen, the mysterious alien race from Firefall bent on the usual genocide and extinction of the human race ?

homage to :



He keeps referring to me as "chosen" - a term I don't use when describing my beliefs - but he keeps quoting it as if it's how describe it.

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03-03-2015, 11:30 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(03-03-2015 11:05 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  He keeps referring to me as "chosen" - a term I don't use when describing my beliefs - but he keeps quoting it as if it's how describe it.

"Chosen", "elect", what's the difference?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-03-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Some of you people seem to think that Satan doesn't exist. How wrong you are.
Satan is alive and well in the form of my sister!

Or so I was told by a JW at work a few years ago.
I can't remember what I said to be told that I am the brother of Satan.
My reply was along the lines of It's strange that my Mum never mentioned this, but thinking about it my little sister could be evil at times when we were young.
Shortly after this I was telling someone about this and un-known to me the JW was behind me. He snapped "Your not supposed to be proud of it." and walked off. I think I won that one.

Since then my nephews and niece have been referred to as the Spawn of the Devil, but never when they are around. The youngest two aren't old enough to understand why loving uncle Steven would call them that.

What do you mean Life is short. It's the longest thing you're going to do.
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03-03-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(03-03-2015 11:30 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 11:05 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  He keeps referring to me as "chosen" - a term I don't use when describing my beliefs - but he keeps quoting it as if it's how describe it.

"Chosen", "elect", what's the difference?

None. It's just how he's quoting it as if to attribute it to me. And, he keeps repeatedly using it. It's petty, I guess... I don't really have a problem with it. I just wanted to know why he kept doing it.

Just use the word and not the quotes.

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03-03-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(03-03-2015 11:53 AM)stevec Wrote:  Some of you people seem to think that Satan doesn't exist. How wrong you are.
Satan is alive and well in the form of my sister!

Or so I was told by a JW at work a few years ago.
I can't remember what I said to be told that I am the brother of Satan.
My reply was along the lines of It's strange that my Mum never mentioned this, but thinking about it my little sister could be evil at times when we were young.
Shortly after this I was telling someone about this and un-known to me the JW was behind me. He snapped "Your not supposed to be proud of it." and walked off. I think I won that one.

Since then my nephews and niece have been referred to as the Spawn of the Devil, but never when they are around. The youngest two aren't old enough to understand why loving uncle Steven would call them that.

You must be doing something right. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-03-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
KC, I'll stop with the chosen references, though again, I guess I'm not making myself clear. I'm not mocking anyone who says they are "elect" or "chosen," though I do find it lacking in humility. On the flip side, as I explained, if indeed there is a Calvinist-type god, I must be "unchosen."

Hey, I just happened to come across a quote this a.m. from Susan Jacoby's "The Age of American Unreason" that succinctly sums up my baseline concern:

She writes of an early 19th-century "public that worshipped the fruits of science but was fundamentally ignorant of the scientific method." The book argues, in part, that this extends into the 21st century and I agree.

Thanks for the exchange.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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03-03-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Ever notice that the Christian visual interpretation of "Satan" is a remarkable likeness of the Greek god Pan?????

Like everything else in Christianity - it's derivative.

nuttin new....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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