A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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20-05-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(19-05-2015 11:00 AM)H4ym4n Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I agree. God knew. However, the Garden of Eden, and since then, doesn't seem to be a problem of knowledge but obedience. We assume the knowledge was bad and ignorance bliss in the Bible, but it was Satan who was offering knowledge without obedience, knowledge without love.

Again you make it sound like lack of obedience was a shock to god.

God knew its creations will have an obedience problem, no?

God knew satan was going to temp eve, no?

Do you think god ran several different creation scenarios?

One where neither consumed the fruit?

One where eve dropped over dead after eating and before getting to Adam?

Adam eating only?

Well it is omniscienct, of corse it knows exactly happens in every scenario out to the end of time.

And it chose this one.

And I'm grateful. Grateful for life, and grateful for the (middle knowledge, as you've put it, and I agree) that Jesus both knew free will creatures would eventually eat forbidden fruit and provided an atonement.

As for a good choice, alternatives I can think of might include:

1) No one and nothing is created

2) Robots who can "love" apart from free will are created

3) God simply somehow tolerates all sinners - but the best analogy here is an earthly mom who tolerates a disobedient child who beats, persecutes, even sometimes murders in cold blood, their brothers and sisters

Of course, the Christian apologetic is that Hell is a time out for which the Heavenly ones are also protected from the bad bros and sisses.

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20-05-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(20-05-2015 08:28 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 11:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are many radioactive minerals. They are underground, you know.

Your lack of real knowledge about radiometric dating makes these discussions with you tedious in the extreme.

Go to real scientific sources and just stop with the pseudo-science.

I understand perfectly well, and we both know that the mass spectrometry calculations would be tempered by the minerals in the fossil. Are you saying the hundred times or so this has occurred, no one checked the mineral content present in the fossil?

PS. We're discussing C14, not radiometric dating.

¹⁴C dating is one type of radiometric dating. Seriously, dude, read some real science.

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20-05-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(20-05-2015 08:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3) God simply somehow tolerates all sinners - but the best analogy here is an earthly mom who tolerates a disobedient child who beats, persecutes, even sometimes murders in cold blood, their brothers and sisters

Of course, the Christian apologetic is that Hell is a time out for which the Heavenly ones are also protected from the bad bros and sisses.

Q, god has murdered millions for less. HE is the child in your analogy.

Also, I have yet to hear an apologetic that is biblically based which even insinuates that hell isn't a permanent TO. If you know of one, pass it on.

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21-05-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(18-05-2015 09:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As I mentioned elsewhere, Chas, I looked on both types of sites again recently. Perhaps you can tell me the corrections for finding C14 dozens of times in fossilized dinosaur remains?

I addressed this question earlier. A repost:




As Hovind admits, dinosaur bones don't contain carbon. Such bones are commonly protected by coating them in various waxy (carbon-based) coatings.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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21-05-2015, 09:41 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(20-05-2015 09:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:28 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I understand perfectly well, and we both know that the mass spectrometry calculations would be tempered by the minerals in the fossil. Are you saying the hundred times or so this has occurred, no one checked the mineral content present in the fossil?

PS. We're discussing C14, not radiometric dating.

¹⁴C dating is one type of radiometric dating. Seriously, dude, read some real science.

Sorry. I meant in the context of C14 goes back 50,000 - 100,000 years and we need other, established radiometric dating to go way, way back. Thanks for the correction.

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21-05-2015, 09:45 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(20-05-2015 11:09 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 08:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3) God simply somehow tolerates all sinners - but the best analogy here is an earthly mom who tolerates a disobedient child who beats, persecutes, even sometimes murders in cold blood, their brothers and sisters

Of course, the Christian apologetic is that Hell is a time out for which the Heavenly ones are also protected from the bad bros and sisses.

Q, god has murdered millions for less. HE is the child in your analogy.

Also, I have yet to hear an apologetic that is biblically based which even insinuates that hell isn't a permanent TO. If you know of one, pass it on.

I think you are being short sighted here, and I say that respectfully. EVERY person has a due date on their death with God. YOUR odds of death are like mine, 1:1. Either God murders everyone, which is a possibility if there is a God, or God not only kills everyone but has them live eternally after--elsewhere, which is also a logical possibility when dealing with omnipotence. Be consistent. Obviously, whether you take choice one or two, you aren't with a straight face going to say God murders people via natural causes (old age).

If that is your stance, your glass is half empty, one of the big criticisms Christians have for atheists, although that's not my beef per se. (If atheists are grumpy or bearish on life itself, that would make sense to my way of thinking.) I see someone living until 100 and think, "Gift!" and you think, "Murder!"

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21-05-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-05-2015 07:05 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 09:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As I mentioned elsewhere, Chas, I looked on both types of sites again recently. Perhaps you can tell me the corrections for finding C14 dozens of times in fossilized dinosaur remains?

I addressed this question earlier. A repost:




As Hovind admits, dinosaur bones don't contain carbon. Such bones are commonly protected by coating them in various waxy (carbon-based) coatings.

On this I'm not concerned with Hovind's statements. You might need to debunk this page to help me...

http://kgov.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue

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21-05-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-05-2015 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 11:09 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Q, god has murdered millions for less. HE is the child in your analogy.

Also, I have yet to hear an apologetic that is biblically based which even insinuates that hell isn't a permanent TO. If you know of one, pass it on.

I think you are being short sighted here, and I say that respectfully. EVERY person has a due date on their death with God. YOUR odds of death are like mine, 1:1. Either God murders everyone, which is a possibility if there is a God, or God not only kills everyone but has them live eternally after--elsewhere, which is also a logical possibility when dealing with omnipotence. Be consistent. Obviously, whether you take choice one or two, you aren't with a straight face going to say God murders people via natural causes (old age).

If that is your stance, your glass is half empty, one of the big criticisms Christians have for atheists, although that's not my beef per se. (If atheists are grumpy or bearish on life itself, that would make sense to my way of thinking.) I see someone living until 100 and think, "Gift!" and you think, "Murder!"

No, I wasn't talking about "natural" stuff, you're right, that would be silly (just like thinking death came into the world due to a magical apple). I was talking about the people he has killed either by his direct doing or by proxy. If your god were to just let "nature" run it's course, that would be one thing, but that is not what is taught now is it?


Edit: BTW, where do you find an apologetic where Hell is only temporary?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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22-05-2015, 06:03 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-05-2015 09:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 07:05 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I addressed this question earlier. A repost:




As Hovind admits, dinosaur bones don't contain carbon. Such bones are commonly protected by coating them in various waxy (carbon-based) coatings.

On this I'm not concerned with Hovind's statements. You might need to debunk this page to help me...

http://kgov.com/dinosaur-soft-tissue

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Soft_tissue_preservation

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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22-05-2015, 06:26 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(21-05-2015 09:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 09:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  ¹⁴C dating is one type of radiometric dating. Seriously, dude, read some real science.

Sorry. I meant in the context of C14 goes back 50,000 - 100,000 years and we need other, established radiometric dating to go way, way back. Thanks for the correction.

¹⁴C dating is only useful to about 50,000 years. There are several different elements that can be used for different ranges.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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