A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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05-03-2015, 04:22 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(04-03-2015 02:58 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Way back when, not so much. Later, it became punishable by death to own a Bible, translate the Bible, publicly read from the Bible.

That's not surprising, all it took for me to stop believing was to actually read the bible.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-03-2015, 05:46 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(05-03-2015 04:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  That's not surprising, all it took for me to stop believing was to actually read the bible.

Yep pretty much the same for me. However I was never a practising anything just had a vague notion of God, probably installed when I was young and attended a Church of England school (not because my family was religious but because it was the closest school to us).

When it dawned on me that the idea of a god seemed like nonsense I decided to read the bible. I was surprised how much of what I thought would be in there actually wasn't and I realised that a lot of that was actually from Dante and Milton. I was also shocked by how violent it actually is. Even Jesus, who people have a tendency to think of as meek and mild, could do with some anger management counselling. But mostly I found it quite entertaining and while I was reading it, it was playing out in my head like a Monty Python film. But reading it in no way changed my mind and had me believing, however vague, again.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

"Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing. Have a great day!" - Ricky Gervais
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05-03-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(05-03-2015 05:46 AM)Eva Wrote:  When it dawned on me that the idea of a god seemed like nonsense I decided to read the bible. I was surprised how much of what I thought would be in there actually wasn't and I realised that a lot of that was actually from Dante and Milton.

We should start a biblical literacy campaign.

Eva, I may be misreading you, but Milton wrote in the 1600s and Dante in the 1300s, long after the bible ("The Book" — talk about arrogant! And then there's naming your particular god God....).

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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05-03-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
Yeah...not sure I worded that very well. I meant a lot of what people assume is in the bible actually comes from Dante and Milton. Then when you read the bible you realise a lot of what you expect to be in there, such as levels of hell etc. actually come from later writings by people such as the two already mentioned.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

"Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing. Have a great day!" - Ricky Gervais
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05-03-2015, 09:37 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(04-03-2015 03:44 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  A few things:

1. The whole "Roman Catholics created the Bible" argument is a bit muddy. When the Canon was defined, they were just Christians. The division between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and Protestant hadn't happened yet. Roman Catholics like to claim that they are the one and only true organic development of early Christianity, and everyone else is a heretic. Eastern Orthodox Christians will make the same claim. Protestants will say no, you've both drifted far far away from the true spirit of early Christianity, and we are the ones who have returned to that tradition. Good luck sorting out the competing claims.

2. Catholics have never been "anti-Bible". The Bible is their main source of doctrine, just as it is for all other Christians. The difference is that they also admit "tradition" as a source of doctrine, so it's not just the Bible (sola scriptura). The claim is that "tradition" ended with the death of the last Apostle, so that all current Catholic dogma has its source in the Bible and/or the teachings of the Apostles. In truth, they have continuously developed and redefined "tradition" all along, and are still doing so today, and much of it has nothing to do with the Bible or the Apostles. This is part of what people like Q object to.

3. What the Catholic Church does object to is people reading the Bible on their own and interpreting it as they see fit (which is basically what Protestants do). The Bible is a very complicated, ambiguous book, and it's full of contradictions. No matter what anyone says, there is no one correct interpretation. But the Catholics like to pretend that there is, and that the Church and only the Church is capable of deciding what that correct interpretation is. So the Catholic layman can read the Bible, but he or she is bound to accept the official interpretation of it as promulgated by the Church. This is another thing that people like Q object to.

4. Protestants believe that the truth is there in the Bible for everyone to see, and that every man is capable of reading it and seeing it. You don't need anyone else to interpret it for you. Of course the result of that is hundreds (if not thousands) of distinct Protestant denominations with hundreds (if not thousands) of distinct interpretations of the Bible. Clearly, this doesn't work. If there is a single correct interpretation, no two denominations can agree on what it is.

It should be clear to an unbiased observer that they're all blowing smoke. Read the Bible for entertainment if you like, but stop pretending that it contains some sort of ultimate truth (and, the ultimate arrogance, that you and only you know what that truth is!).

I'm not a Protestant. The RCC says in their official doctrines and in any books which have an imprimatur after review by the Index of the Holy See (read: the Inquisition) that Catholic tradition is SUPERIOR to scripture.

The RCC was absolutely anti-Bible when it persecuted translators for daring to try to bring the Bible into the vernacular, for murdering Bible believers who interpreted the Bible differently, for imprisoning people for merely owning Bibles at home, etc.

And no, the Bible certainly contains all kinds of ultimate truth.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-03-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(05-03-2015 09:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm not a Protestant.

If you are Christian and not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, you are Protestant. That's what "Protestant" means. I know you're not Catholic. Are you Eastern Orthodox?
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05-03-2015, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2015 11:05 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(04-03-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I will not likely start every refutation with "The Bible says" so if you're unaware that Job is a book and person in the Bible, you likely will perform poorly with standards of proof for biblical truths, too. Sorry.

Q, I most likely have forgotten more about the bible than you know. "Biblical truths".... That is like finding a needle in the haystack. Any good fictional story has a smattering of actual people, places and things, it makes for a more gripping and vivid tale...too bad jesus, satan, noah and moses didn't exist. Only wiggle room there is "maybe" a historic jesus existed in which the myth was based on after the fact.....every good hero-god construct through history had some basis....like Romulus...you know, the 800 years before "Christ" story that the jesus myth borrowed heavily from....of course if you're unaware of christian theology, Christian doctrine, hero-god mythicism throughout history, biblical history, and the historicity of jesus, you likely will perform poorly with standards of proof for establishing truths in relation to religion, too. Sorry.

(05-03-2015 09:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And no, the Bible certainly contains all kinds of ultimate truth.

Define ultimate truth...establish truth within the bible outside of non supernatural people, places and things.

Did Noah exist? No.

Did Moses exist? No.

Did a man named jesus exist? sure, several of them actually, three that claimed to be prophets/messiahs between 28-35 CE.

For example...Did the exodus happen? No.

Were there two million Egyptian held Hebrew slaves racing to the promised land? NO. It is really hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery or other archeological evidence with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.

According to Exodus 12:37–38, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock. Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550 men aged 20 and up. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some 2 million people, compared with an entire Egyptian population in 1250 BCE of around 3 to 3.5 million. Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long. No evidence has been found that indicates Egypt ever suffered such a demographic and economic catastrophe or that the Sinai desert ever hosted (or could have hosted) these millions of people and their herds.

Oh and lets not forget god's usage of the ten plagues to strike fear into the pharaoh's heart, forcing him to finally release the slaves

Water Turned Into Blood
Frogs
Lice
Flies
Pestilence on the Livestock
Boils
Hail
Locusts
Darkness
Death of All the Firstborn

Odd none of this is recorded anywhere either hmmmm a thinking person would call bullshit. But then there's Q.


Like all fairy tales contained within the bible, it didn't happen...I won't bother to belabor the obvious....so Q, what truths do you have to present?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-03-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(05-03-2015 09:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The RCC says in their official doctrines and in any books which have an imprimatur after review by the Index of the Holy See (read: the Inquisition) that Catholic tradition is SUPERIOR to scripture.

Sorry, no. I was a Roman Catholic for many years. I have read the Catholic Catechism. The official doctrine is that Scripture and Tradition have equal authority. Not superior, equal. Your anti-Catholic brainwashing is showing.

Quote:The RCC was absolutely anti-Bible when it persecuted translators for daring to try to bring the Bible into the vernacular, for murdering Bible believers who interpreted the Bible differently, for imprisoning people for merely owning Bibles at home, etc.

They may have done this at some point in the distant past, but not because they were "anti-Bible". The official explanation is that they don't want people coming up with their own wacky interpretations of the Bible -- they require that you accept their wacky interpretation. But some others here have offered an equally plausible reason: they (the Church) know that actually reading the Bible (the whole Bible, not just the parts they cherry-pick for you) is the surest way to lose your faith.
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05-03-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(05-03-2015 09:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... the Bible certainly contains all kinds of ultimate truth.

Pray tell.

#sigh
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06-03-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(05-03-2015 10:23 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(05-03-2015 09:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm not a Protestant.

If you are Christian and not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, you are Protestant. That's what "Protestant" means. I know you're not Catholic. Are you Eastern Orthodox?

I'm not a Protestant 1) I'm not protesting anything 2) I'm what is called non-denominational 3) Protestant denominations have degenerated into little splinters of the RCC and some of the same meaningless rituals and liberal thinking without biblical adherence.

Please look online at Christian kinds or types and learn what nondenominational means--it's actually a statement that we are neither Catholic nor Protestant. You can call me a biblical literalist or evangelical if you like.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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