A "gotcha" argument for Satan
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11-03-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(11-03-2015 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 02:06 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I thought everything after the words "in the beginning..." was a parable Consider

I think you're taking "In the beginning..." out of context. Consider

Now we need Q's hermeneutic sauce, no wait, we really don't. Rainbow Vomit

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-03-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(11-03-2015 01:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Would it help if I pointed out from that first chapter of Job how Satan killed all of Job's family except his wife? Thus we can say Satan is a murderer if not a liar, and acknowledge one-half of Jesus's statement in this matter.

It would be extremely helpful if you could realize it is a fairy tale, a disproven one, and any reference to the bible as a citation for anything besides a study of mythology is fallacious in nature. While we are at it, lets discuss why bigfoot prefers anal sex with fairies over a trifecta with goats? Or what temperature goldilocks prefers her oatmeal to be...of how Thor prefers to have his steak, rare or medium? or perhaps we could discuss at length the philosophical musings of spongebob? The impact of the great pumpkin's offer of incarnation and atonement via the weekly eating of pumpkin pie....what type of underwear did Romulus wear and why....you know, all those other fairy tales and made up shit.

If you are an atheist, we can do much the same for life, reality and existence itself. But I'm not scared to talk about Jesus and the Bible, what C.S. Lewis called a "true myth" because it really happened. Thumbsup

And if you don't think it did happen and also that the minds at TTA are superior to The Q's collective hive mind, than no worries, mate, right? What are you afraid of?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-03-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(11-03-2015 01:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Would it help if I pointed out from that first chapter of Job how Satan killed all of Job's family except his wife? Thus we can say Satan is a murderer if not a liar, and acknowledge one-half of Jesus's statement in this matter.

Just curious, why did this god feel the need to prove Satan wrong? Why didn't he just smite him for challenging god?

You don't believe that all of this actually occurred do you? Isn't this story a prime candidate for the parable pile?

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. - 1 Cor 10:11

God likewise doesn't just smite people into Hell without letting them live their life and sin and trust or reject and so forth. He gave Satan a chance and demonstration. He gave Job suffering and rewards. ALL of us, EVERY person who has ever lived, has faced this universal nature of suffering and rewards.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-03-2015, 12:56 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 01:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Just curious, why did this god feel the need to prove Satan wrong? Why didn't he just smite him for challenging god?

You don't believe that all of this actually occurred do you? Isn't this story a prime candidate for the parable pile?

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. - 1 Cor 10:11

God likewise doesn't just smite people into Hell without letting them live their life and sin and trust or reject and so forth. He gave Satan a chance and demonstration. He gave Job suffering and rewards. ALL of us, EVERY person who has ever lived, has faced this universal nature of suffering and rewards.

So the fact that according to many of these stories you are supposed to accept as true warning, there is direct deliberate actions and at times appearances by God and his divines but the lack of that existing in contemporary reality doesn't bother you as seemingly an alarming trigger that it may be in fact false?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-03-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 12:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. - 1 Cor 10:11

God likewise doesn't just smite people into Hell without letting them live their life and sin and trust or reject and so forth. He gave Satan a chance and demonstration. He gave Job suffering and rewards. ALL of us, EVERY person who has ever lived, has faced this universal nature of suffering and rewards.

So the fact that according to many of these stories you are supposed to accept as true warning, there is direct deliberate actions and at times appearances by God and his divines but the lack of that existing in contemporary reality doesn't bother you as seemingly an alarming trigger that it may be in fact false?

I agree 100%, it would be alarming! Except for what I know of miracles:

a) Ones I have experienced (those these are anecdotal and less reliable than Bible knowledge IMO)

b) The fact that miracles come in waves of close association with significant events: Creation, the giving of the Law, the days of the major prophets, the advent of Christ, the Return of Christ

c) miracles don't "prove" God exists or are done to arbitrarily show God's power--most of the miracles I can think of helped people--food for the hungry, life for sinners, healings...

d) miracles authenticate the speaker for God to their audience, so that their saying/writings are treasured to eventually become canon

Jesus summed these concepts, saying that the rabbis who argued with Him could see His resurrection and still doubt (because you can deny miracles, spiritually and God via your free will)

Your objection can be summed like this also:

If there are 100 Bible miracles, mostly seen by Israelites, should we all throw out the possibility/probability that the Israelites encountered God? We might, we might even consider the Jewish Bible claims spurious because they claim to have seen miracles...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-03-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 12:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So the fact that according to many of these stories you are supposed to accept as true warning, there is direct deliberate actions and at times appearances by God and his divines but the lack of that existing in contemporary reality doesn't bother you as seemingly an alarming trigger that it may be in fact false?

I agree 100%, it would be alarming! Except for what I know of miracles:

a) Ones I have experienced (those these are anecdotal and less reliable than Bible knowledge IMO)

b) The fact that miracles come in waves of close association with significant events: Creation, the giving of the Law, the days of the major prophets, the advent of Christ, the Return of Christ

c) miracles don't "prove" God exists or are done to arbitrarily show God's power--most of the miracles I can think of helped people--food for the hungry, life for sinners, healings...

d) miracles authenticate the speaker for God to their audience, so that their saying/writings are treasured to eventually become canon

Jesus summed these concepts, saying that the rabbis who argued with Him could see His resurrection and still doubt (because you can deny miracles, spiritually and God via your free will)

Your objection can be summed like this also:

If there are 100 Bible miracles, mostly seen by Israelites, should we all throw out the possibility/probability that the Israelites encountered God? We might, we might even consider the Jewish Bible claims spurious because they claim to have seen miracles...

The injection is why should miracles be accepted based on faith? It's literally the method of scamming that internet money thieves and other scam artists use. You proclaim you have the evidence, but say it's only there in the past, you can't see now. Maybe you'll be able to see it when you already give in and accept it.

The only way I would sensibly accept these claims of a personal god is if it blatantly and frequently would demonstrate miracles on a world wide scale for people not just an arbitrarily picked group. If there was routine random writings in skies in all languages and relifting or reanimating dead, amputees, or sending messages to people individually and on grand scales in every way to advert it being just pockets of delusions for people, then miracle would be seen as valid. A single person attesting to a miracle is what you already know, terrible evidence.

And some people proclaim that would violate free will which somehow they think is valid. Despite there is evidence in the bible if it were true, that several droves of people have direct evidence of God and his power and yet use their "free will" to disobey him. From The Israelite under Moses, to Lots wife, or Satan, and more... that's deliberately false for any proposed objection to god acting in the way he supposedly did in the past with his ways he could in the present. To accept anything on such low tier levels of reasoning and evidence is to be willfully gullible for no good reason.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-03-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 12:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So the fact that according to many of these stories you are supposed to accept as true warning, there is direct deliberate actions and at times appearances by God and his divines but the lack of that existing in contemporary reality doesn't bother you as seemingly an alarming trigger that it may be in fact false?

I agree 100%, it would be alarming! Except for what I know of miracles:

a) Ones I have experienced (those these are anecdotal and less reliable than Bible knowledge IMO)

Quite the opposite, actually. There is no way to directly test the veracity of those purported miracles in the Bible, while you can be questioned and your testimony tested against evidence.

Quote:b) The fact that miracles come in waves of close association with significant events: Creation, the giving of the Law, the days of the major prophets, the advent of Christ, the Return of Christ

c) miracles don't "prove" God exists or are done to arbitrarily show God's power--most of the miracles I can think of helped people--food for the hungry, life for sinners, healings...

d) miracles authenticate the speaker for God to their audience, so that their saying/writings are treasured to eventually become canon

The miracles described in the Bible are claims, not facts.

Quote:Jesus summed these concepts, saying that the rabbis who argued with Him could see His resurrection and still doubt (because you can deny miracles, spiritually and God via your free will)

Your objection can be summed like this also:

If there are 100 Bible miracles, mostly seen by Israelites, should we all throw out the possibility/probability that the Israelites encountered God? We might, we might even consider the Jewish Bible claims spurious because they claim to have seen miracles...

We should not accept these claimed miracles without corroborating evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-03-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ALL of us, EVERY person who has ever lived, has faced this universal nature of suffering and rewards.
Actually all of us have tried to make sense of the random suffering in our field of consciousness, with varying degrees of success.

Actually trying to make sense of it is the root problem. There IS no sense to it. That is the realization that religion labors mightily to avoid and negate.

Instead of trying to excuse and justify the existence of suffering we should be expending energy to reduce and, eventually, remove it.

But you would rather install suffering as a necessary part of the natural order.
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12-03-2015, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2015 05:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 05:01 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ALL of us, EVERY person who has ever lived, has faced this universal nature of suffering and rewards.
Actually all of us have tried to make sense of the random suffering in our field of consciousness, with varying degrees of success.

Actually trying to make sense of it is the root problem. There IS no sense to it. That is the realization that religion labors mightily to avoid and negate.

Instead of trying to excuse and justify the existence of suffering we should be expending energy to reduce and, eventually, remove it.

But you would rather install suffering as a necessary part of the natural order.

"As we get older and stop making sense..."





"Stop making sense, stop making sense...stop making sense, making sense."

#sigh
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13-03-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: A "gotcha" argument for Satan
(12-03-2015 02:00 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I agree 100%, it would be alarming! Except for what I know of miracles:

a) Ones I have experienced (those these are anecdotal and less reliable than Bible knowledge IMO)

b) The fact that miracles come in waves of close association with significant events: Creation, the giving of the Law, the days of the major prophets, the advent of Christ, the Return of Christ

c) miracles don't "prove" God exists or are done to arbitrarily show God's power--most of the miracles I can think of helped people--food for the hungry, life for sinners, healings...

d) miracles authenticate the speaker for God to their audience, so that their saying/writings are treasured to eventually become canon

Jesus summed these concepts, saying that the rabbis who argued with Him could see His resurrection and still doubt (because you can deny miracles, spiritually and God via your free will)

Your objection can be summed like this also:

If there are 100 Bible miracles, mostly seen by Israelites, should we all throw out the possibility/probability that the Israelites encountered God? We might, we might even consider the Jewish Bible claims spurious because they claim to have seen miracles...

The injection is why should miracles be accepted based on faith? It's literally the method of scamming that internet money thieves and other scam artists use. You proclaim you have the evidence, but say it's only there in the past, you can't see now. Maybe you'll be able to see it when you already give in and accept it.

The only way I would sensibly accept these claims of a personal god is if it blatantly and frequently would demonstrate miracles on a world wide scale for people not just an arbitrarily picked group. If there was routine random writings in skies in all languages and relifting or reanimating dead, amputees, or sending messages to people individually and on grand scales in every way to advert it being just pockets of delusions for people, then miracle would be seen as valid. A single person attesting to a miracle is what you already know, terrible evidence.

And some people proclaim that would violate free will which somehow they think is valid. Despite there is evidence in the bible if it were true, that several droves of people have direct evidence of God and his power and yet use their "free will" to disobey him. From The Israelite under Moses, to Lots wife, or Satan, and more... that's deliberately false for any proposed objection to god acting in the way he supposedly did in the past with his ways he could in the present. To accept anything on such low tier levels of reasoning and evidence is to be willfully gullible for no good reason.

Chas is closer to correct, the miracles are claims of an ancient text(s) and not my "choice by faith" as you wrote. I'm ascribing the characteristics of rationality and reason to the scriptures.

Quote:The only way I would sensibly accept these claims of a personal god is if it blatantly and frequently would demonstrate miracles on a world wide scale for people not just an arbitrarily picked group.

Therefore, you have a bias. It has to be miracles 1) your way or the highway 2) contrary to everything I've posted--not to "prove" faith but to authenticate speakers as canonical and accurate. Convenient but damning. I didn't choose to become a worshipper of the Great Father because of miracles, I chose to respond to the Bible as the repository of great truth. The same option is available to you but your "my way or the highway" is not good.

I'm not sure I got your point about free will. I believe people may obey or disobey God for salvation of their free will. Would you mind restating? Sorry for being so dense.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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