A logical proof that christianity is absurd
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24-04-2012, 11:32 AM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
(24-04-2012 11:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 11:24 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Actually, Infinite can become finite if done so forcibly whether by intervention or malfunction.

Crude example:

I buildz me a robot that barks like a doggiez fo'eva.

Troll Egor comez and Hulk smashez my barking robot.

My infinite barking robotz is no mo and me sadface :'(
Your dog wasn't infinite. It's bark was never ending. You can't be infinite if a part of you is finite... obviously, your dog was finite or else he wouldn't have been crushed.
I'm not sure that infinite requires invincibility. That's what you're implying here. Had my robot been left alone, it would have went on forever barking.

SO if you're positing that infinity require invincibility, then yes, you are right.

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24-04-2012, 11:35 AM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
A good ol' paradox. There are plenty of others, like:

1. omnipotence paradoxes

2. the paradox of eternity --- If God existed for eternity before creating the universe, he could never reach a point in time where he would create the universe. To get to any point in time, it would have to be "after infinite time".

3. the paradox of justice --- God can't be both just (giving an appropriate punishment for crimes) and merciful (giving a less-than appropriate punishment for crimes).

I still maintain that you can't prove that no god exists, but simply that a god with these prescribed traits can't logically exist. The Christian God could exist, but not as the Christians know Him.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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24-04-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
(24-04-2012 11:35 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I still maintain that you can't prove that no god exists, but simply that a god with these prescribed traits can't logically exist. The Christian God could exist, but not as the Christians know Him.
Many things could exist Drooling

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24-04-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
(24-04-2012 11:32 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 11:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your dog wasn't infinite. It's bark was never ending. You can't be infinite if a part of you is finite... obviously, your dog was finite or else he wouldn't have been crushed.
I'm not sure that infinite requires invincibility. That's what you're implying here. Had my robot been left alone, it would have went on forever barking.

SO if you're positing that infinity require invincibility, then yes, you are right.
So, no outside effect would ever counteract your dog's barking? The cogs would never rust and stop working? Yes, infinite requires invincibility, if not, there is a chance that the infinite could become finite. Infinite cannot become finite, or else it's not infinite.

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24-04-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
(24-04-2012 11:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-04-2012 11:32 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  I'm not sure that infinite requires invincibility. That's what you're implying here. Had my robot been left alone, it would have went on forever barking.

SO if you're positing that infinity require invincibility, then yes, you are right.
So, no outside effect would ever counteract your dog's barking? The cogs would never rust and stop working? Yes, infinite requires invincibility, if not, there is a chance that the infinite could become finite. Infinite cannot become finite, or else it's not infinite.
I like this tango... or are we waltzing?

My hypothetical robot is invincible against all outside effects except for Egor's trolling. Egor is the only one that can stop it and he does just that in my example.

Alright, so your definition is that infinity cannot have any chance, no matter what it involves, to break down and become finite. Gotcha. you are right then.

I just have a different opinion about infinity. It could be invincible or not invincible. Another example, albeit less silly, light will travel on forever in a straight line unless something deflects it completely.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

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24-04-2012, 12:09 PM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
(23-04-2012 05:20 PM)TheCrusadingAtheist Wrote:  Proof God cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.


Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A re-post also, of mine.

No Free Will from logic.

Christians say, "Free will is given to man, by God". Each person can choose to accept god's love and spend eternity in Heaven or to reject god and spend eternity being tortured in Hell. How is that freedom of choice when it is the same thing as The Godfather, making you an offer you cannot refuse?

The problem with free will is, that Christians have insisted on their god being Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent.
No god can be all three at the same time. The attributes contradict each other.

If god knows what He will do in the future and because He is Omnipotent, does something else, then He is not omniscient.
If god knows what He will do in the future and cannot do something else, then He is not omnipotent.
See the problem?

If God knows the future, if the future can be known, that means that the future is predictable and unchangeable. This, in turn, means that our actions are predetermined. If god is all knowing, free will is an illusion.
This also binds god, in that He knows what he will do in the future, and He must do it.

Let's look at Jesus and his predictions that Judas would betray him and Peter would deny him.
Those were future events. Do you think Judas could have used his free will to opt out? Not, if Jesus/God was omniscient. Same goes for Peter.
The actions of Peter and Judas were predetermined. They had no choice.

When Moses was attempting to secure the release of the Jews, from Egypt, God repeatedly "hardens Pharaoh's heart". God did not allow Pharaoh to release the Jews, until He had delivered His 10 plagues upon the Egyptian people. Pharaoh didn't have free will.

Biblical prophecy would not be possible, unless events and human actions were predetermined and there is no free will.
The fulfillment of a prophecy cannot be left to random chance.

What about the child who is murdered by a monster, or a people slaughtered by a stronger opponent (or a god)?
Did they choose to be harmed? Where was their free will? These acts show that the strong or the people in power have greater free will than their victims. Hmmm... See how this fits in with the free will / god exists thingy?

If god has a "plan for each of us", if there is an agenda, then that pretty much rules out free will.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

You might argue, that while god has a plan for each of us, He doesn't force us to follow this plan. The problem with this argument, is that if a person does not follow god's plan, it may effect my ability to follow god's plan. A drunk driver may run me down. A robber may shoot me.

Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

The 6 point Calvinists believe our fates are sealed, even before we are born. This would mean that god allows humans to be born, knowing they will someday burn forever. Seems wrong to me, even for a mysterious god.

There is no evidence that a god gives or safeguards free will.

Actually, there is no evidence that god exists anywhere, in any dimension, or universe.

No Free Will from science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...dmNZM#t=0s

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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24-04-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
Much of the discussion here has devolved into an argument over semantics. Obviously, the definition of the the word 'infinite' has a different meaning for the arguers. It would be best to set a definition for the word and move on from there. Either may want to change the word to something that fits the meaning they are using.

KC, I believe that the OP is assuming in his argument that an omniscient god would be omni-benevolent because most of the claims about god's nature from christians have been that he is omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving, and all-caring.

For the arguers against KC, he does not believe, and not all christians do, that god is omni-benevolent. You cannot always use that assertion. But even without that quality there are still other arguments you can make.
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24-04-2012, 12:38 PM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
(24-04-2012 12:25 PM)arbmouser Wrote:  Much of the discussion here has devolved into an argument over semantics. Obviously, the definition of the the word 'infinite' has a different meaning for the arguers. It would be best to set a definition for the word and move on from there. Either may want to change the word to something that fits the meaning they are using.

KC, I believe that the OP is assuming in his argument that an omniscient god would be omni-benevolent because most of the claims about god's nature from christians have been that he is omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving, and all-caring.

For the arguers against KC, he does not believe, and not all christians do, that god is omni-benevolent. You cannot always use that assertion. But even without that quality there are still other arguments you can make.
Well said.

On the Christian side, the Bible only makes assertions that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. It also says that God has a plan for His own. This in no way shows omnibenevolence, but I can see where people get it from... I guess.

Simply put though, due to paradoxes, omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence cannot coexist with omnibenevolence based on the observation of humanity. God also shows that He is not omnibenevolent in scripture.

Back to the God-Rock paradox, I used "infinite" because it's an easy way of saying those three "omni" words that describe God. Basically, if God gives up His omnipotence to create a rock that He cannot lift, then He is not omnipotent and was never omnipotent. If He can't create a rock He cannot lift, then He isn't omnipotent and never was. That's why it's a paradox. The question simply cannot be because it "undefines" omnipotence.

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24-04-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
I've never really heard the Christian God labeled as Omnibenevolent by Christians. The three "omni"-s I've heard are Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everywhere all the time.

With regard to the OP's argument- the Christian response would be "Yes, God knows everything about you before you're born- including every choice you are going to make. You are still the one making the choice- even though God knows you are going to make it in the first place. God's plan is that you choose Him, but He knows if you are going to choose Him before He even creates you, as you can choose not to follow God's plan. That is free will."

My response to that is if God made me who I am, that is- he designed me in my mother's womb- then he made me to be a logical thinker and a skeptic. Why, then, does he punish me eternally for the decisions that follow from design when the fault is not my own?

If he did not design me in the womb, and I am simply a result of the genetics of my parents and my upbringing. My parents combined genetics formed a brain augmented with the environment of my upbringing, which resulted in that brain operating skeptically. Why then am I punished eternally for the decisions that follow when the fault is not my own?

True free will is an illusion. But personal responsibility in the absence of an omniscient god is not an illusion. We may make decisions based on how our brain operates, but without an omniscient god we still need to be responsible for those decisions.
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24-04-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: A logical proof that christianity is absurd
That is the question that theists who believe in predestination can not answer satisfactorily. Why punish people for making a decision that they have been created to make? It is unjust and horrific. Which is why when I meet people that maintain this position I gladly tell them that if they could ever prove that our existence was such the case, I would gladly rail against god, and fight and defy that god with all I had. Surely such a being would never warrant respect, let alone obedience or worship. Tyranny is evil, no matter the power or source from which it comes.
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