A long dark night of the mind
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14-06-2013, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 11:09 AM by TarzanSmith.)
A long dark night of the mind
I find it strange that in order to not be called a monster it seems I must be called a sexist, homophobic tyrant.

What follows is just a normal philosophical meandering that often hits me when in a state of melancholia and at the wee hours of the morning, resigned to getting little sleep that night.

This night was a focus upon the two contradictory natures of my mind that have led me to label myself as a Nietzschian Catholic or possibly a Machiavellian Catholic. Although I must admit that my knowledge of Nietzsche is limited to excerpts of the Anti-Christ and his works on the Ubermensch and Machiavelli is limited to a handful of quotes. Therefore, it is possible that I have mislabelled myself but my philosophy most likely will not change with further reading.

The main reason I call myself this is that I have a disbelief in equality, which I solidified and defined from an excerpt of St Thomas’ De Regnum, I think. St Thomas wrote was answering the question if there would be equality before the fall, if say Adam and Eve had kids and formed a community before eating the fruit. His answer was that there would not be equality because even by virtue of someone being older than another there would be differences and this would essentially mean that these people would not have total equality. It was with this that I was able to justify what I held to be true and other people consider to be Racism, Sexism and the like. I fully believe that these are fully justifiable traits and that equality is a farce.
Another odd belief I held was the theory of the strong should rule over the weak, I believe this stemmed from a variety of sources. One was my seemingly absent or at least significantly muted empathy. I do not know how I developed this it just seems somewhat inherent. It was however reinforced by the internet and sites such as 4chan. An example of this is that the same day as the Boston marathon bombings I was already laughing at jokes over it.

I would also consider the video games I played to have been a Factor. I have always enjoyed the Total war series of Games where you are a general and you must conquer the world. Various things in this game influence me, I believe. Such as running down fleeing enemies, taking cites which gives the option to enslave the populace or exterminate the settlement. As well as the loading screen had various quotes from military and political thinkers like Machiavelli. One of my favourites is Thucydides’ “the strong did what they could and the weak suffered what they must.”

The third factor is that I have usually been somewhat superior to others. In elementary school, a very formative period, I was always the strongest in my grade and often grades higher than me. In high school I ended up being the second strongest in the school in my grade twelve year. I still fall into the higher percentile in terms of size and strength despite the fact that I do not work out. I am also in the higher percentile for both intelligence and ability, meaning I can do almost anything I set my mind to. As such I have always had a view of being superior to other people.

It was interesting I ended up taking this online survey, which seemed quite extensive and accurate (it was not a facebook quiz) and it rated me high for Narcissism and desiring others praise and moderate for Schizotypal which means I tend to think differently than others. All of which I agree with. I think I am somewhat unique on this site in that I have been walking down the street and imagined killing those walking around me. Recently I was walking home from the hardware store with a piece of ABS pipe and a middle age lady was walking towards me and as she was approaching, all that was running through my head was me beating her with the ABS.

So this is my secular world. I have realised that I am a monster in the eyes of other people if only theoretically. I believe that those beneath me are less worthy then me. So then comes the conflict. I am also a Catholic.
This is a place where I do ascribe to Nietzsche. In his Antichrist, he states that Religion is the birthplace of the virtues of Equality, empathy and compassion. Many atheists claim that one does not need religion to be moral; however, it seems that I do.
I do not ascribe to the tenants of Catholicism out of fear of hell or promise of heaven but merely because I am Catholic and as such, I should do what a Catholic should do. I have often felt guilty of doing something that I am not proud of not because I thought it a wrong thing to do but something that a Catholic should not do. This plays into an interesting idea as hand in hand with my Catholicism, I consider myself a gentleman. Which is itself a sexist notion as it places women higher than a man; however, I find that if I do not ascribe to this position I feel as though women are beneath men. Since Aristotle tells us to choose the harder extreme it would seem to be the better choice to be a gentleman.

An interesting point on how my Catholicism has led me away from secular evil is that I used to be tolerant of Slavery until I read that it was banned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So Dan Savages argument that the Bible got the one absolute moral truth wrong has no bearing on me.

And this Brings me to my Final point. That I need my Catholicism. Some of you may postulate that why don’t I merely switch to another branch of Christianity that is more tolerant. There is an inherent problem here is that My Catholicism is not a Sunday hobby where I can switch churches like switching Hockey leagues. Catholicism is how I see the world and truth in general. To stop being a Catholic would literally mean that I would rethink the entire existence of the world. It would also undermine the validity of the truth that I believe. If truth becomes merely a matter of picking what you want to be true then there is not much of a basis for validity of this truth.
So it seems I am stuck having people call me a sexist and a homophobe so that they won’t call me a monster.



Sorry for the long post. I thought it might add background to my point of view. One thing that has always stuck with me is that a member once asked that I seem really smart why do I believe in religion. I thought I should answer it.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

Up to the heretic, smack, smack, smack!
Down to the jail went Good St. Nick!

When people say WWJD just remember that flipping tables and whipping people is still a valid option.
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14-06-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
(14-06-2013 01:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  why do I believe in religion.

Wow. Interesting post. I quoted the snippet above, because it seems to me to be an inconsistent statement. What exactly do you believe in?

Religion is the set of rules, rituals, and dogma that comes out of a belief in a deity. I don't think you can "believe" in religion. Are you simply saying that you subscribe to the philosophical boundaries presented by catholicism? Why do you think that is? I'm not sure that the religion has as much to do with it as you think it does.

You seem very self aware, yet troubled by your thoughts. Ever sought out a psychologist, if only for the purpose of sorting shit out and understanding yourself better?

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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14-06-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
(14-06-2013 01:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I find it strange that in order to not be called a monster it seems I must be called a sexist, homophobic tyrant.
What follows is just a normal philosophical meandering that often hits me when in a state of melancholia and at the wee hours of the morning, resigned to getting little sleep that night.
This night was a focus upon the two contradictory natures of my mind that have led me to label myself as a Nietzschian Catholic or possibly a Machiavellian Catholic. Although I must admit that my knowledge of Nietzsche is limited to excerpts of the Anti-Christ and his works on the Ubermensch and Machiavelli is limited to a handful of quotes. Therefore, it is possible that I have mislabelled myself but my philosophy most likely will not change with further reading.
The main reason I call myself this is that I have a disbelief in equality, which I solidified and defined from an excerpt of St Thomas’ De Regnum, I think. St Thomas wrote was answering the question if there would be equality before the fall, if say Adam and Eve had kids and formed a community before eating the fruit. His answer was that there would not be equality because even by virtue of someone being older than another there would be differences and this would essentially mean that these people would not have total equality. It was with this that I was able to justify what I held to be true and other people consider to be Racism, Sexism and the like. I fully believe that these are fully justifiable traits and that equality is a farce.
Another odd belief I held was the theory of the strong should rule over the weak, I believe this stemmed from a variety of sources. One was my seemingly absent or at least significantly muted empathy. I do not know how I developed this it just seems somewhat inherent. It was however reinforced by the internet and sites such as 4chan. An example of this is that the same day as the Boston marathon bombings I was already laughing at jokes over it.
I would also consider the video games I played to have been a Factor. I have always enjoyed the Total war series of Games where you are a general and you must conquer the world. Various things in this game influence me, I believe. Such as running down fleeing enemies, taking cites which gives the option to enslave the populace or exterminate the settlement. As well as the loading screen had various quotes from military and political thinkers like Machiavelli. One of my favourites is Thucydides’ “the strong did what they could and the weak suffered what they must.”
The third factor is that I have usually been somewhat superior to others. In elementary school, a very formative period, I was always the strongest in my grade and often grades higher than me. In high school I ended up being the second strongest in the school in my grade twelve year. I still fall into the higher percentile in terms of size and strength despite the fact that I do not work out. I am also in the higher percentile for both intelligence and ability, meaning I can do almost anything I set my mind to. As such I have always had a view of being superior to other people.
It was interesting I ended up taking this online survey, which seemed quite extensive and accurate (it was not a facebook quiz) and it rated me high for Narcissism and desiring others praise and moderate for Schizotypal which means I tend to think differently than others. All of which I agree with. I think I am somewhat unique on this site in that I have been walking down the street and imagined killing those walking around me. Recently I was walking home from the hardware store with a piece of ABS pipe and a middle age lady was walking towards me and as she was approaching, all that was running through my head was me beating her with the ABS.
So this is my secular world. I have realised that I am a monster in the eyes of other people if only theoretically. I believe that those beneath me are less worthy then me. So then comes the conflict. I am also a Catholic.
This is a place where I do ascribe to Nietzsche. In his Antichrist, he states that Religion is the birthplace of the virtues of Equality, empathy and compassion. Many atheists claim that one does not need religion to be moral; however, it seems that I do.
I do not ascribe to the tenants of Catholicism out of fear of hell or promise of heaven but merely because I am Catholic and as such, I should do what a Catholic should do. I have often felt guilty of doing something that I am not proud of not because I thought it a wrong thing to do but something that a Catholic should not do. This plays into an interesting idea as hand in hand with my Catholicism, I consider myself a gentleman. Which is itself a sexist notion as it places women higher than a man; however, I find that if I do not ascribe to this position I feel as though women are beneath men. Since Aristotle tells us to choose the harder extreme it would seem to be the better choice to be a gentleman.
An interesting point on how my Catholicism has led me away from secular evil is that I used to be tolerant of Slavery until I read that it was banned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So Dan Savages argument that the Bible got the one absolute moral truth wrong has no bearing on me.
And this Brings me to my Final point. That I need my Catholicism. Some of you may postulate that why don’t I merely switch to another branch of Christianity that is more tolerant. There is an inherent problem here is that My Catholicism is not a Sunday hobby where I can switch churches like switching Hockey leagues. Catholicism is how I see the world and truth in general. To stop being a Catholic would literally mean that I would rethink the entire existence of the world. It would also undermine the validity of the truth that I believe. If truth becomes merely a matter of picking what you want to be true then there is not much of a basis for validity of this truth.
So it seems I am stuck having people call me a sexist and a homophobe so that they won’t call me a monster.



Sorry for the long post. I thought it might add background to my point of view. One thing that has always stuck with me is that a member once asked that I seem really smart why do I believe in religion. I thought I should answer it.

The modern concept of equality is simply equality before the law, that we have equal rights. No sane person believes everyone is the same.

All it means is that you have every right to believe your homophobic, sexist Catholic delusion, and I have every right to think less of you.

Your beliefs are ugly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
@ Chas

Quote:The modern concept of equality is simply equality before the law, that we have equal rights. No sane person believes everyone is the same.

I fully agree with you that no sane person thinks everyone is the same. However I do not see the reason why everyone should be equal before the Law if everyone is not equal. If one wishes to discriminate, as long as the reasons are true, then I see no reason why he should be reprimanded. Also this is not only regarding law but also societal view as that can have almost as much weight as the law as many of you atheists have experienced.

Quote:Your beliefs are ugly.

I think my secular beliefs are very much ugly but I see my Catholic beliefs, and that which comes out of it, as quite beautiful.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

Up to the heretic, smack, smack, smack!
Down to the jail went Good St. Nick!

When people say WWJD just remember that flipping tables and whipping people is still a valid option.
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14-06-2013, 01:44 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
If I may ask, when you are picturing yourself beating down an elderly lady, is it more a "what if" fantasy, or an actual urge or desire to make it happen?

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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14-06-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
@ evenheathen

Quote:Wow. Interesting post. I quoted the snippet above, because it seems to me to be an inconsistent statement. What exactly do you believe in?

Religion is the set of rules, rituals, and dogma that comes out of a belief in a deity. I don't think you can "believe" in religion. Are you simply saying that you subscribe to the philosophical boundaries presented by catholicism? Why do you think that is? I'm not sure that the religion has as much to do with it as you think it does.

You're right I did somewhat misuse the word. It was really more of my saying why I am religious but I didn't want to necessarily single out Catholicism.

However as you asked why I believe in Catholicism I will answer in brief.
I was raised Catholic so that was the foundation. As I came to places like TTA I was forced to look deeper into my faith. The Catholic Church is very heavy into reason and logic as am I. They are also incredibly scholarly. The theological writings of the Catholic Church are incredibly extensive and they probably have an answer to any question that one could come up with. St Thomas Summa Theologica is a great example of this as it is essentially collection of objections to Catholicism which he then refutes. It is a massive and comprehensive work that is more or less the foundation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As well I believe in miracles which serves to strengthen my faith. However I do not hold a blind faith. I accept the possibility that there could be no God but I have weighed out the evidence and I find theism more likely. It's not necessarily that I am ignorant the predicates that you postulate I just come to a different conclusion.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

Up to the heretic, smack, smack, smack!
Down to the jail went Good St. Nick!

When people say WWJD just remember that flipping tables and whipping people is still a valid option.
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14-06-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
Quote:Posted by evenheathen - Today 01:44 PM
If I may ask, when you are picturing yourself beating down an elderly lady, is it more a "what if" fantasy, or an actual urge or desire to make it happen?

That is a tough question to answer. I am currently writing a paper on pleasure taken from taking someone else's life based upon the Greek (and Catholic) concept that the soul is divided into three parts; the reason, will and passions. I claim that one can claim greatest happiness by fulfilling one's will. For example climbing mount Everest which makes no sens rationally or animalistically. But would be a challenge and the higher the challenge the more the will is satisfied when it is accomplished. I think the taking of a human life to be under fulfilling one's will.

When I imagined it I see myself gaining pleasure from it but I think of it as more of a pleasure of the will. I would describe a urge as closer to the passions as it sounds closer to an addiction which is very like an animal in that I want it for immediate pleasure. So in all honesty it's hard to answer. If there were no repercussions, no hell or law, no belief in honour. Would I do it. Sort of a ring of Gyges question.

Sorry if I confused with my talk of the Greek soul as many atheists to not believe in a soul, so I am not too sure how much you know of that theory. but in summation I don't know.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

Up to the heretic, smack, smack, smack!
Down to the jail went Good St. Nick!

When people say WWJD just remember that flipping tables and whipping people is still a valid option.
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14-06-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
(14-06-2013 01:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Catholicism is how I see the world and truth in general. To stop being a Catholic would literally mean that I would rethink the entire existence of the world.
Well, maybe you have a lot of thinking to do.

(14-06-2013 01:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  It would also undermine the validity of the truth that I believe. If truth becomes merely a matter of picking what you want to be true then there is not much of a basis for validity of this truth.
So, "equality is a farce" is the valid truth you're willing to stick with? Because... you don't want to stop being a catholic. Not just catholic but, a catholic. As in, it's not a part of me rather, it makes me just one of the guys - the rank and file catholic. Seems a pretty equal position to me.

(14-06-2013 01:06 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  So it seems I am stuck having people call me a sexist and a homophobe so that they won’t call me a monster.
All things being equal, everyone's a monster.

You do have a lot of thinking to do... maybe some rethinking will help sort things out. Shy

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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14-06-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
(14-06-2013 01:51 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  @ evenheathen

Quote:Wow. Interesting post. I quoted the snippet above, because it seems to me to be an inconsistent statement. What exactly do you believe in?

Religion is the set of rules, rituals, and dogma that comes out of a belief in a deity. I don't think you can "believe" in religion. Are you simply saying that you subscribe to the philosophical boundaries presented by catholicism? Why do you think that is? I'm not sure that the religion has as much to do with it as you think it does.

You're right I did somewhat misuse the word. It was really more of my saying why I am religious but I didn't want to necessarily single out Catholicism.

However as you asked why I believe in Catholicism I will answer in brief.
I was raised Catholic so that was the foundation. As I came to places like TTA I was forced to look deeper into my faith. The Catholic Church is very heavy into reason and logic as am I. They are also incredibly scholarly. The theological writings of the Catholic Church are incredibly extensive and they probably have an answer to any question that one could come up with. St Thomas Summa Theologica is a great example of this as it is essentially collection of objections to Catholicism which he then refutes. It is a massive and comprehensive work that is more or less the foundation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. As well I believe in miracles which serves to strengthen my faith. However I do not hold a blind faith. I accept the possibility that there could be no God but I have weighed out the evidence and I find theism more likely. It's not necessarily that I am ignorant the predicates that you postulate I just come to a different conclusion.

Fair enough. I'm curious as to how you reconcile you're views on equality with your chosen belief in a god that loves every one of his children infinitely.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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14-06-2013, 02:46 PM
RE: A long dark night of the mind
(14-06-2013 01:41 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  @ Chas

Quote:The modern concept of equality is simply equality before the law, that we have equal rights. No sane person believes everyone is the same.

I fully agree with you that no sane person thinks everyone is the same. However I do not see the reason why everyone should be equal before the Law if everyone is not equal. If one wishes to discriminate, as long as the reasons are true, then I see no reason why he should be reprimanded. Also this is not only regarding law but also societal view as that can have almost as much weight as the law as many of you atheists have experienced.

Who judges how different persons are treated before the law? On what basis?
Your concept leads to women in burkhas, honor killings, and other horrors.
I certainly wouldn't want you, or anyone like you, determining the laws.

Quote:
Quote:Your beliefs are ugly.

I think my secular beliefs are very much ugly but I see my Catholic beliefs, and that which comes out of it, as quite beautiful.

You have it backwards.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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