A mockery called "free speech"
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24-03-2017, 07:11 PM
A mockery called "free speech"
Ragey rant ahead. (also hopefully in the correct section)

Free speech does not exist. Unless you are on the internet, relatively anonymous, in a place that doesn't care about country laws.

You know... when I was a teenager, in Germany, and we learned at school about the Nazi times, the 3. Reich, Hitler, the Holocaust, etc... We learned about it so much that in retrospect I can see it was not just history lessons, it was brain washing. We were brain washed into thinking that it is ok to only allow one side of the argument. And somehow we bought it.

How can people build real opinions if they are not allowed to express their ideas and when they are not allowed to question a common consensus.
Does it matter that it is illegal to say something specific? The idea still exists. You cannot eradicate an idea making it illegal to speak it.

In Germany, France, and Isreal it is illegal to say that the holocaust has never existed. In India it is illegal to make fun of religion. In Muslim countries it is illegal to not believe in Allah. In North Korea it is illegal to listen to radio from outside North Korea.

Has it ever, in human history, everrrr worked to forbid an idea? Ever, I ask it again and again and again. Has it worked?
Hasn't it always backfired in one way or another?

You know the funny thing is that nowadays it gets so much easier to police thought, to create laws against certain ideas and opinions. It is so easy because humans are led and governed by inciting fear. Oh boy it is so easy to rule of people who are scared all the time.
It is now easy to create those laws and to make people accept them and like them and defending them. Listen to those who blindly follow laws without ever questioning them.

Here goes nothing. I have a teamspeak server. Most of the people on my server smoke weed quite regularily. Good for them, man, good for them. Our member icon is actually a marijuana leaf. The other day a new person joined. Here is the conversation we had:
He: Did you see <name> avatar?
Me: Yes
He: It's weed
Me: Yes
He: You will get banned (thinking my server will get shut down)
Me: No I will not.
He: But it's illegal
Me: (already laughing inside) Yea it is and no it isn't.

This incident led me to update my website to clarify that I will not ban or kick people for use of, talk positively of, or avatars of weed. Isn't it fucking ridiculous that I had to clarify that because there are people who actually are afraid to even just so much as question a law?

How is it ok that the NSA may monitor your phones and internet traffic at all times? Hi US citizens? Did you wake up yet? Do you realise that your government rates every single citizen, per default, as a potential "terrorist"? Do you understand that - by far - more people in the US have been killed by toddlers in possession of guns than people have been killed by terrorists? Oh by the way, don't you think it is a bit peculiar that you apparently don't have a right to privacy?
Hi Germany? Did you wake up yet from your endless pant-shitting of how the world might look at you? Have you realised yet that just because something is unpopular doesn't mean it should be illegal? And have you realised yet that forbidding free speech on certain topics doesn't shut people up and does not get rid of ideas?
How come that nowadays, if you question ISLAM you will be called a RACIST? Because Muslims have been pulling the racist card so many times that somehow this is now accepted. No fucktards! Stop right there. Islam is not a race. Islam is a fucking religion and it is ok to question a religion. Do not let anybody silence you by using such dirty tricks.

Fuck do I hate this freedom of speech shit that people like to talk about. The amount of times that I have had people tell me that "I live in a free country." No you fucktard, you don't live in a free country. You have no freedom of speech. You have no freedom period. I dare you to go out and say or do something that has been idiotically deemed to be illegal!
Strip naked and walk the street. Go ahead, I dare you. Stand in the middle of the city in Germany and shout "Hail Hitler". Go ahead fucktard, do it, I dare you. Sit in fucking school in the UK and question Islam, if you think you have free speech. Go ahead.

Fuck this shit.

You know what is the most frustrating in all of this. I actually have to go to the only ONLY fucking place that I know of that will allow me to speak these words and that place is on the internet. The only place where this rant will not be geo IP blocked for certain countries. I know no other place (other than using Tor browser that is), than this forum, where I can actually say that stuff. Thanks btw.
You know why. Because it is not deemed politically correct. My opinions are unpopular out there. People will be appalled by me using my brain and questioning all this "freedom" bullshit.
I am not buying into dumb laws or social rules that make no sense. (My coworker keeps rolling her eyes when I defend the use of "dirty words")

Wasn't it fucking Goebbels who said, you just have to tell a lie enough times and people will accept it as truth. You know what. He was right!

Damn I need something to calm me down. This has been boiling in me for so long... So so long.

Ok, I'm done.
If you made it to the end of this rant, consider yourself very patient.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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24-03-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
I hate laws against indecent exposure.

You would think in this day and age people would have better things to worry about than the shape of our bodies.
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24-03-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(24-03-2017 07:11 PM)Leela Wrote:  Ragey rant ahead. (also hopefully in the correct section)

Free speech does not exist. Unless you are on the internet, relatively anonymous, in a place that doesn't care about country laws.

You know... when I was a teenager, in Germany, and we learned at school about the Nazi times, the 3. Reich, Hitler, the Holocaust, etc... We learned about it so much that in retrospect I can see it was not just history lessons, it was brain washing. We were brain washed into thinking that it is ok to only allow one side of the argument. And somehow we bought it.

How can people build real opinions if they are not allowed to express their ideas and when they are not allowed to question a common consensus.
Does it matter that it is illegal to say something specific? The idea still exists. You cannot eradicate an idea making it illegal to speak it.

In Germany, France, and Isreal it is illegal to say that the holocaust has never existed. In India it is illegal to make fun of religion. In Muslim countries it is illegal to not believe in Allah. In North Korea it is illegal to listen to radio from outside North Korea.

Has it ever, in human history, everrrr worked to forbid an idea? Ever, I ask it again and again and again. Has it worked?
Hasn't it always backfired in one way or another?

You know the funny thing is that nowadays it gets so much easier to police thought, to create laws against certain ideas and opinions. It is so easy because humans are led and governed by inciting fear. Oh boy it is so easy to rule of people who are scared all the time.
It is now easy to create those laws and to make people accept them and like them and defending them. Listen to those who blindly follow laws without ever questioning them.

Here goes nothing. I have a teamspeak server. Most of the people on my server smoke weed quite regularily. Good for them, man, good for them. Our member icon is actually a marijuana leaf. The other day a new person joined. Here is the conversation we had:
He: Did you see <name> avatar?
Me: Yes
He: It's weed
Me: Yes
He: You will get banned (thinking my server will get shut down)
Me: No I will not.
He: But it's illegal
Me: (already laughing inside) Yea it is and no it isn't.

This incident led me to update my website to clarify that I will not ban or kick people for use of, talk positively of, or avatars of weed. Isn't it fucking ridiculous that I had to clarify that because there are people who actually are afraid to even just so much as question a law?

How is it ok that the NSA may monitor your phones and internet traffic at all times? Hi US citizens? Did you wake up yet? Do you realise that your government rates every single citizen, per default, as a potential "terrorist"? Do you understand that - by far - more people in the US have been killed by toddlers in possession of guns than people have been killed by terrorists? Oh by the way, don't you think it is a bit peculiar that you apparently don't have a right to privacy?
Hi Germany? Did you wake up yet from your endless pant-shitting of how the world might look at you? Have you realised yet that just because something is unpopular doesn't mean it should be illegal? And have you realised yet that forbidding free speech on certain topics doesn't shut people up and does not get rid of ideas?
How come that nowadays, if you question ISLAM you will be called a RACIST? Because Muslims have been pulling the racist card so many times that somehow this is now accepted. No fucktards! Stop right there. Islam is not a race. Islam is a fucking religion and it is ok to question a religion. Do not let anybody silence you by using such dirty tricks.

Fuck do I hate this freedom of speech shit that people like to talk about. The amount of times that I have had people tell me that "I live in a free country." No you fucktard, you don't live in a free country. You have no freedom of speech. You have no freedom period. I dare you to go out and say or do something that has been idiotically deemed to be illegal!
Strip naked and walk the street. Go ahead, I dare you. Stand in the middle of the city in Germany and shout "Hail Hitler". Go ahead fucktard, do it, I dare you. Sit in fucking school in the UK and question Islam, if you think you have free speech. Go ahead.

Fuck this shit.

You know what is the most frustrating in all of this. I actually have to go to the only ONLY fucking place that I know of that will allow me to speak these words and that place is on the internet. The only place where this rant will not be geo IP blocked for certain countries. I know no other place (other than using Tor browser that is), than this forum, where I can actually say that stuff. Thanks btw.
You know why. Because it is not deemed politically correct. My opinions are unpopular out there. People will be appalled by me using my brain and questioning all this "freedom" bullshit.
I am not buying into dumb laws or social rules that make no sense. (My coworker keeps rolling her eyes when I defend the use of "dirty words")

Wasn't it fucking Goebbels who said, you just have to tell a lie enough times and people will accept it as truth. You know what. He was right!

Damn I need something to calm me down. This has been boiling in me for so long... So so long.

Ok, I'm done.
If you made it to the end of this rant, consider yourself very patient.

Around the time I was about 16 did I question everything. At first I was sucked into the whole Political Correctness. Around a month into that I realized just how stupid they were. And the person who brought me into the age of reason if the one I have a quote from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dY4WlxO6i0

I quickly realized that my freedom was slowly being taken away as soon as I found out the government patrolled all of our so called private conversations. I woke up to the truth around the time I started college. I had a ignorant life, that I times I wish I still had. Truth is rough.

I find myself agreeing with you. The owners of the countries do not want you to be smart, nor do they want people capable of questioning things.

I'll give you a story Leela, a quick one that happened ot me when I started to question things.
In my junior year of highschool we read the story Beowulf.

Now our teacher did tell us that Christians had influenced the story from what it originally was. And the way they talked of men going back to their old ways to doing animal sacrifices and talking about the evil vile demons of their original religion (Pagan), which was what the book used to be, made it sound horrible.
My comment was, "To me it seems like the Christianity in this book is making paganism sound horrible." Which if you read Beowulf it does sound like that.

And she politly, and sudtly told me that wasn't the case and I was stupid.

This had happened more then once in the class. I live in a southern state, so when I said 'Women are just a capable as men.' The teacher didn't even back me up when all the men laughed at me and mocked me when I used facts. (Like women can stand more pain then men can. Child birth being very high on the scale and yet most women do not pass out during it as it's over the rate of passing out form pain.)

It was a basic hint that I was told to 'shut up and do not question' Facts were never allowed, I was never allowed to say 'I don't think so.'

I knew from then on Free Speech is only true for those who deem it to be 'Free'. And we have the illusion of control in this world.

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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24-03-2017, 07:34 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
No laws against running around naked in Southern Oregon. Although it is frowned upon.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-03-2017, 08:06 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(24-03-2017 07:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  No laws against running around naked in Southern Oregon. Although it is frowned upon.

True! Also, there was a big brouhaha in NYC a few years ago about a parade where the people were naked. They were allowed to have their parade. They probably had a physique like my 64-year-old bod, which doesn't really benefit the public, to be honest. Facepalm

On another note, I do wood working. A lot of people who do that and metal working are quite conservative. At one wood working forum, some guy made a silhouette of a naked woman. He painted it "flesh color", with a touch of darker color at the nipple (only one was in a position to show). One person went NUTS, and complained that his 12 year old son could see this. I 'splained that his son has already probably seen much more than that. Crazy.
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24-03-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Quote:Free speech does not exist. Unless you are on the internet, relatively anonymous, in a place that doesn't care about country laws.
I hate to inform you that you are wrong. Competely wrong.

Free speech doesnt exist on the internet too, including TTA. I present to you an excerpt of the forum rules:
Quote:1) No spam
Spam is defined as 'repetitious posts or threads with the same or similar content'. The consequence of failing to comply with the policy is potentially having your account banned
It may be of some interest to you that, for example, spamming people on a german street with repetitive words or phrases, or stuffing their mailboxes with ads for supermarkets, will not, i repeat, not get you arrested, but it will get you banned here. Weird isnt it?

Quote:3) No Porn, Nude Images, or Discussions on the Merits of Paedophilia
Some content has been deemed inappropriate and not aligned with the over-arching principles of the forum.
Firstoff, porn is legal in Germany for example. Within certian limits. Only adults over 18 are allowed to own and share porn with each other under mutual consent.

Discussing pedophilia: Why not talk about Pedophilia on TTA? It doesnt hurt anyone, since its only talk, right? Right? So whats the difference between Germany and TTA? As far as i know discussing pedophilia is allowed in Germany.

Quote:4) No Threats
This applies to intimidating threats of physical violence or interfering with, or threatening to interfere with, someone's life beyond the forum. This excludes threats to report legal issues. This behavior can result in your account being banned and depending on the nature of the threats, your details being passed to law enforcement
Again, afaik, all you get in Germany for (seriously) threatening someone is a restraining order. On TTA you get "eliminated", your free speech is being taken by banning your account.

Quote:Strip naked and walk the street. Go ahead, I dare you. Stand in the middle of the city in Germany and shout "Hail Hitler". Go ahead fucktard, do it, I dare you.
Well actually its not clear to me what exactly will happen to you. As a matter of fact, probably nothing at all. Lets dissect your claim a bit.

1. Strip naked and walk a street.
This is actually not illegal in Germany. This is considered a non-criminal offense, or contravention/infraction. You will get a sending-off, thats all.
2. Hitlergru├č
It is, in fact, illegal, but with a rather large room for interpretation or lots of exceptions.
Example: Police stops you, and you do the "Adolf". If you want to indicate by doing the nazi salute that they are applying nazi methods to you by stopping you, you wont get punished.
Other exceptions include art (documentaries, usage to actually criticize fascism, art in general,). Now, this topic is becoming interesting, because if you are an artist, running around naked on the street and doing the nazi salute as a kind of performance, ab-so-fucking-lutely-nothing will probably happen to you. Interesting isnt it?

So, if i may ask, what is your rant all about? "Free speech" as you seem to understand it (from what i understand) doesnt exist, not on TTA at least. As i see it, there is only a different limit to what is allowed to say on TTA and on a street in Germany, because actual free speech as practiced in an actual context on actual streets (this remind me of recently banned Fred H. and his rose tinted version of communism) seems to be not as simple as you deem it to be.

Let me point out that by playing advocatus diaboli, I just as well could argue:
I am under the impression that you dont care about "free speech" (of others) too much either, but about the fact that you want to be allowed to say what you want. Why didnt you rant about the limits set to free speech by TTA? You dont seem to care about adult persons who would like to share porn on TTA, who would get banned for doing so. You dont seem to care about pedophiles who would like to discuss the merits of pedophilia (i dont support pedophilia or pedophiles, but i support their right to have free speech). You do seem to care however that you are allowed to deny the holocaust (which i ironically havent see you do yet) or run naked on the street shouting "heil Hitler".

I think you are confused about the concept of "free speech" and how its applied on TTA, in Germany or elsewhere. I suggest you try to get rid of your (accumulated?) rage, and calm down and re-think your position, since rage does not particularly foster rational thinking.

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24-03-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(24-03-2017 07:11 PM)Leela Wrote:  Free speech does not exist. Unless you are on the internet, relatively anonymous, in a place that doesn't care about country laws.

You know... when I was a teenager, in Germany, and we learned at school about the Nazi times, the 3. Reich, Hitler, the Holocaust, etc... We learned about it so much that in retrospect I can see it was not just history lessons, it was brain washing. We were brain washed into thinking that it is ok to only allow one side of the argument. And somehow we bought it.

There is no argument here. Holocaust happened and Earth isn't held afloat by giant turtle. There is no sense in allowing other side to speak when other side is only interested in slinging shit.

Quote:How can people build real opinions if they are not allowed to express their ideas and when they are not allowed to question a common consensus.

By learning. And Shoah is not consensus but fact. It maye be unfortunate that German law punishes denial but honestly? Tough shit, Nazis can't cry how failed Austrian painter was innocent and how Jews made it all up to make money. What a shame.

Quote:Does it matter that it is illegal to say something specific? The idea still exists. You cannot eradicate an idea making it illegal to speak it.

It matters. You can't be shitgibbon without consequences. I might think that punishment for Holocaust denial isn't brightest idea in history of civilization, but I won't argue against it.

Quote:In Germany, France, and Isreal it is illegal to say that the holocaust has never existed. In India it is illegal to make fun of religion. In Muslim countries it is illegal to not believe in Allah. In North Korea it is illegal to listen to radio from outside North Korea.

False equivalence.

Quote:Has it ever, in human history, everrrr worked to forbid an idea? Ever, I ask it again and again and again. Has it worked?
Hasn't it always backfired in one way or another?

Holocaust was taken to the court (Irving vs. Lipstadt case). Truth won. Idea did not backfire.

Quote:You know the funny thing is that nowadays it gets so much easier to police thought, to create laws against certain ideas and opinions. It is so easy because humans are led and governed by inciting fear. Oh boy it is so easy to rule of people who are scared all the time.

Yes, yes. Poor, poor nazis who can't scream that millions of Jews were killed by their grandparents. I might shed the tear if I would care about such idiots feelings.


Not interested in rest of rant.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-03-2017, 02:25 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2017 03:08 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
This is just my thoughts and not directed at anyone.

Free speech doesn't mean being free of the consequences of your speech, it means not being censored.

How much censoring you get depends on the venue. If it's any sort of private place, including an internet forum, then the owners have the right to censor you. Or to ask you to leave, in fact. You don't get to walk into someone's house and speak all you like. If they don't want you there, out you go. At least, it should be that way.

There are also matters of public safety and inciting hate crimes. So anytime you're in public, you have to obey laws and so you could be "censored" by being arrested.

Personally, I do think it's healthy for people to be able to express their opinions on any subject. But in general, in order to reach many people with those opinions, you've got to go through some sort of medium. And you've got to respect that medium, and the rules that apply to it. I think they are generally there for good reasons, such as stopping harm or avoiding getting sued.

If someone wants to talk privately with me, I'd discuss anything they liked. Any subject, I'll hear someone out. I don't care how unpopular. Obviously I'm not going to devote hours of my time to hearing someone rambling on, but I'll give someone a chance to make a point and back it up. I don't like the idea of "taboo" subjects. But public discussion is different and more complex.

In England, I think we have a pretty good balance of free speech versus safety. I feel fine saying just about anything, without worrying someone is going to report me (unless I start making threats or something).

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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25-03-2017, 02:43 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 02:25 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Free speech doesn't mean being free of the consequences of your speech, it means not being censored.

I think this is something a lot of people do not understand now and days.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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25-03-2017, 03:12 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Indeed. I'd be interested in anyone trying to defend the notion that all speech should be free of consequence.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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