A mockery called "free speech"
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25-03-2017, 04:11 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Principle of free speech has always had caveats since it was ever first articulated. And it's not some kind of natural law either, it's just a social agreement, and a relatively new one. Any Greek or Roman, or Zulu or Mongol, in times past would have laughed at you if you tried to tell them that you should have the right to say whatever the hell you like.

I think free speech is a great idea, but free speech with certain limits I have no problem with. Specifically I think hate speech and the like (definition of hate speech is purposefully vague in SA law at least, but it covers things like inciting people to riot or to attack foreigners) is something that should be restricted, in the same way that shouting "fire" in a theatre is restricted (IIRC the famous fire in a crowded theatre thing was based on an actual legal case).

The main thought behind the principle of free speech is to preserve the right of people to criticise their government, because authoritarian governments always seek to shut down their detractors. It's intention (IMO anyway) is not to say that anyone with a soapbox is equally deserving of airtime.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-03-2017, 04:27 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
EG:

Free speech doesn't mean you can shout "FIRE!" in a movie theatre.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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25-03-2017, 04:36 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Unfortunately a lot of people think that should be the law even if there's really a fire.
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25-03-2017, 04:48 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 04:36 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Unfortunately a lot of people think that should be the law even if there's really a fire.

Are you making some kind of weird analogy where some reasonable restriction applies to free speech and in some crazy edge case not having the restriction would be helpful. If so, please quote an example.

Otherwise, you're saying that there's really been a case where a theatre was on fire and people were angry that someone shouted that there was a fire?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-03-2017, 04:58 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
A weird analogy. I mean people use the fire in the theater cliche every time. I heard someone say, "What if there's really a fire?" I thought that was a clever comeback so I started plagiarizing it.

Burn the flag: Crowded Theater
Watch porn: Crowded Theater
Say Nigger: Crowded Theater

Fuck it. Really burn it down then if it'll shut that boring ass comeback up.
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25-03-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 04:58 AM)ImFred Wrote:  A weird analogy. I mean people use the fire in the theater cliche every time. I heard someone say, "What if there's really a fire?" I thought that was a clever comeback so I started plagiarizing it.

Burn the flag: Crowded Theater
Watch porn: Crowded Theater
Say Nigger: Crowded Theater

Fuck it. Really burn it down then if it'll shut that boring ass comeback up.

But... burning the flag, watching porn and saying "nigger" are all legal.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-03-2017, 05:06 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
I know.

I'm still sick of that fucking cliche.
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25-03-2017, 05:20 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
If I don't have *any* freedom why am I allowed to express my opinion without getting jailed for it? I get the point that there are limits, I don't get the point that there's no freedom whatsoever.

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25-03-2017, 05:46 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
I think SZYs analogy was intended to point out that free speech as in "absolute" free speech, everybody being allowed to say anything at any time, is a kind of red herring, or not desireable. On top of that, of course, is the issue of having to endure the consequences of your free speech, as pointed out by Robvalue. Of course Fred is right as well, that we must be careful in any kind of limitation we are to impose on free speech.

What i tried to point out, is that like so many topics, "free speech" is not as simple as it seems to be at first glance. On one hand it should be evident (by example of the movie theatre, albeit its a fringe example, but nevertheless a good placeholder for any situation) that "absolute" free speech is probably not even a good idea. On the other hand, any limitation of free speech should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Ultimately, the fact that we are able to and, in fact, having this discourse about free speech, with different viewpoints, shows that things arent as bad as Leela tried to portray the situation in her rant. As long as we have enough freedom to discuss the possible merits and possible limits of free speech, i dont see us threatened.
I dont know what acute situation or event triggered her, or what happened so she felt necessary to create this thread. But i felt that she went a step too far, and tried to correct her accordingly, particualry because the examples werent well chosen (is running around naked free speech or freedom of expression? Afaik, those are slightly different things, but the experts here may correct me if needed). She also happened to chose (again, as i remember she did this a few times yet) Germany as a kind of "bad" example, which happens to be my native country. I am enough of a patriot to not let this stand unwithspoken, and i think i can judge freedom of speech in Germany well enough to point out that she was wrong in doing so. I am well aware of the limitations of free speech in Germany, very well aware, trust me (fuck, do i sound like trump now? Consider ). But bringing Germany to the table as an example of how the limitation of free speech is abused for indoctrination even (see: holocaust in her post. Hell, i dont even know how she can describe the education of children about genocide as "brainwasing". I am confident, no lies are being fed to German pupils) seems bordeline ...very unclever to me, as Szuchow has pointed out as well.

Just be reminded, that the Netherlands (arguably the most progressive country in Europe after the war) decided to prohibit Erdogans foreign minister from doing campaigning for a change of the (turkish) constitution to support Erdogans authoritarian views, by not letting him enter the Netherlands. Germany didnt...yet.
It was (last year) the Czech Republic, also considered to be very progressive by some, that created a "ministry of truth" to fight fake news. Germany didnt...yet. However this is probably OT, since its about spying, not so much about freedom of speech, yet...spying on others also infringes other peoples freedoms. I am always trying to remind myself that the most important fredom is the freedom of others.

I stand by my last remark that we all(!) need to be calm in our discussion, because of how precarious the topic is and how easy it is to talk past each other. I am fully aware of how important a freedom this is we are talking about.

Here is one song i like very, very much. It is called "Freiheit".




Quote:The contracts are written
And they laughed a lot
And for dessert something sweet
Freedom, freedom

Subject to the relays
And the Pope has also been there
And my neighbour was one of the first
Freedom, freedom
Is the only one missing
Freedom, freedom
Is the only one missing

Unfortunately man is not naive
Unfortunately man is primitive
Freedom, freedom
Was turned off again

Whoever dreams of freedom
Should never miss out parties
Should dance even on graves
Freedom, freedom
Is all that counts

Freedom, freedom
Is all that counts

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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25-03-2017, 06:08 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Anjem Choudary spouted shit here in the UK for decades under the guise of free speech and 'social activism' until he went too far and got sent to jail.

I'd go all Trump and request to deport the twat, but he is English.

Free speech is fine if you are expressing your own views and thoughts, it's when you try to influence others into repeating your ideologies it gets tricky.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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