A mockery called "free speech"
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25-03-2017, 06:28 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(24-03-2017 07:11 PM)Leela Wrote:  You know... when I was a teenager, in Germany, and we learned at school about the Nazi times, the 3. Reich, Hitler, the Holocaust, etc... We learned about it so much that in retrospect I can see it was not just history lessons, it was brain washing. We were brain washed into thinking that it is ok to only allow one side of the argument. And somehow we bought it.

You could also say, you were taught what really happened, to not fall into the same trap again. To not give it a second helping.

And what's that about only hearing one side of the argument? Would you like to hear a concentration camp guard presenting why it was OK what they did? To have an informed opinion on why the whole system was a fundamental crime against humanity? To agree with them, maybe?

When I went to school, in the 70ies, they still avoided the topic like the plague. Why, because there still were quite a number of people, teachers even, who served under the swastika. Wouldn't want to shame them, would we?

There was only one, a veteran of WWII, who at least told us what war is like. What it's like to fear for ones life on a daily basis, to come back to the frontlines from a vaccation, only to learn that your whole unit, all your friends and comrades had been wiped out in the meantime.

The rest I got from my parents and grandparents. They lived through these years, they had to flee, they were persecuted and I still remember one story my father told me. He watched Hitler come into Vienna in '38 and being a 15 year old boy, he was fascinated. He always used that story to tell me never to fall for appearances or shiny surfaces.

That said, I would like for people having the opportunity to show they're fundamental assholes by what they say.
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25-03-2017, 08:19 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 06:28 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(24-03-2017 07:11 PM)Leela Wrote:  You know... when I was a teenager, in Germany, and we learned at school about the Nazi times, the 3. Reich, Hitler, the Holocaust, etc... We learned about it so much that in retrospect I can see it was not just history lessons, it was brain washing. We were brain washed into thinking that it is ok to only allow one side of the argument. And somehow we bought it.

You could also say, you were taught what really happened, to not fall into the same trap again. To not give it a second helping.

And what's that about only hearing one side of the argument? Would you like to hear a concentration camp guard presenting why it was OK what they did? To have an informed opinion on why the whole system was a fundamental crime against humanity? To agree with them, maybe?

When I went to school, in the 70ies, they still avoided the topic like the plague. Why, because there still were quite a number of people, teachers even, who served under the swastika. Wouldn't want to shame them, would we?

There was only one, a veteran of WWII, who at least told us what war is like. What it's like to fear for ones life on a daily basis, to come back to the frontlines from a vaccation, only to learn that your whole unit, all your friends and comrades had been wiped out in the meantime.

The rest I got from my parents and grandparents. They lived through these years, they had to flee, they were persecuted and I still remember one story my father told me. He watched Hitler come into Vienna in '38 and being a 15 year old boy, he was fascinated. He always used that story to tell me never to fall for appearances or shiny surfaces.

That said, I would like for people having the opportunity to show they're fundamental assholes by what they say.

Yep, no mention of Hitler in school in Germany in the 50s. But plenty of first hand accounts and experiences. Some very, very gory. Probably much more impressive than schoolbooks could ever be. Sadcryface

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-03-2017, 08:29 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Alright... wow... Got a bit caught up on the whole Hitler part of my rant eh?
So before I move on, I would like to clarify that I simply oppose the idea of silencing one side of an argument just because it is an unpopular idea or just because in the past something happened. A discussion has two sides. Silencing one side does nothing. And this is a general statement, not specific to Germany, so please try to stay with the point I am making rather than getting unreasonably defensive about laws that make no sense. You love your country, more power to you. But the fact that you, so vehemently jump in and simply repeat what you were told just proves my point. People are ruled by fear. Fear that something might happen again, fear to question a law, fear of what someone else might think about you. And that fear makes people stubborn. And that fear also causes people to only react to certain "trigger words" rather than understanding a point that is being made.
I did not say that the people speaking for Hitler or denying the Holocaust are right. I said that it is not ok to make it illegal to have them say these things. It is not actually stopping them. The punishment is not stopping them either btw. So the law has failed its purpose.

Another thing I apparently have to clarify.
I did not say that saying bad stuff should be without consequences. What I did say is that saying bad stuff should not be illegal. I am not sure how much it came across that I mean a state level of denial of freedom of speech in countries that claim that they have it.
The US likes to spread to its citizens that they have "freedom" and "freedom of speech" when that is absolutely a lie. And that is also why I quoted Goebbels. Not because I like Goebbels but because in that one sentence he was actually right. Very current issue is Muslims. Look at the way Trump is using Muslims to try and take away more freedom from people. Look how much bullshit has been allowed and accepted by the citiziens of the US because "terrorism".

Also I couldn't care less about the Romans. We are in 2017. The world has moved on. We have the internet where the whole planet can connect within the blink of an eye. Country laws that limit freedom of speech do exactly nothing. A lot of the time those laws just cause misery. Two examples are people being publicly executed for listening to radio from outside the country in North Korea and people having to be in prison or "re-educated" or killed in places like Malaysa because they are born Muslim but don't believe in Allah. As I said, the ideas / ideologies / opinions are not gone just because they are made illegal. They just make people miserable and cause more hate than needed.
Yes, I moved away from the Hitler stuff on purpose because apparently my point doesn't come across otherwise.

Also I do agree that there are some limits. A simple rule that I was taught as a child was this "your freedom stops where you inhibit someone else's freedom" and I think that is a very reasonable approach.
And yes I also agree that on private platforms, the owner of the platform has the last say. And that also makes sense. TTA for example is a platform mainly about atheism. Due to experience we know that if porn and spam are allowed on a platform, it will be full of that in no time so that the original topic is swallowed and the platform dies. So by forbidding it on this forum, the people who come here on-topic keep the platform they came for.
But keep in mind that a country is not a privately owned place (at least in theory). A country belongs (at least in theory) to the people. I appreciate some law makers who really mean to make the country a safe place but making it safe while having to pay with my freedom is not a good exchange. Not in my opinion anyway.

Alright I have re-written this answer post multiple times now. Let's see if I phrased carefully enough this time.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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25-03-2017, 08:32 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 08:19 AM)Dom Wrote:  Probably much more impressive than schoolbooks could ever be. Sadcryface

My father brought me up using stories of his life. When I did something wrong, there was no punishment, but he sat down with me and told me a story of his childhood and why a child should listen to their parents sometimes. Before he was 20, he lived through two civil wars, losing his own father, emigration and WWII, althoug he never served. So he got a lot to tell.
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25-03-2017, 08:38 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Leela

Sometimes people need to just go with the spirit of what one is saying and not worry about taking apart the particulars. You called it a rant from the get-go.

When someone goes on a rant you either give them a high five or the finger. Getting all "yeah but" about it is bad form.

I'm giving you the high five. Let's let people speak their fucking minds.
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25-03-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 05:06 AM)ImFred Wrote:  I know.

I'm still sick of that fucking cliche.

You still failed to explain why it's invalid Drinking Beverage

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-03-2017, 09:51 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Maybe it is valid. I'm sick of hearing it either way.
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25-03-2017, 10:04 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
I don't know exactly how these laws/rules work, but I think it's rather silly to try and stop people giving their opinion about history. If it was a requirement that people had to be good at assessing historical evidence, religion wouldn't be allowed. I don't see what harm comes from allowing people to present "both sides", however lame their case may be, providing they're not inciting hatred/violence along with it. And as long as they're not going around hassling people, obviously. It seems totalitarian and anti-free thought to announce "the truth", which no one is allowed to even disagree with.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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25-03-2017, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2017 10:39 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 10:04 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I don't see what harm comes from allowing people to present "both sides", however lame their case may be, providing they're not inciting hatred/violence along with it.

The problem with presenting both sides is that there's always more than two sides. Ideally, you just want the facts.

Hobo
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25-03-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
@Robvalue

There aren't two sides to Holocaust debate, cause there is nothing to debate. Holocaust is fact, just like Earth havig moon is fact.

And for dog sake what "truth". Shoah is fact, and you can't disagree with facts. At best you can try to deny them or ignore them but that's all.

Ignorant nazis being forced to be more careful with their words by law isn't something that I would call totalitarian. I may not entirely agree with German law, but I won't shed a tear over nazi scumbags having harder time hurting other with words.

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