A mockery called "free speech"
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25-03-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 10:36 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  There aren't two sides to Holocaust debate, cause there is nothing to debate. Holocaust is fact, just like Earth havig moon is fact.

As you say, there are no two sides in that debate. One's a historical fact, the other one revisionism based on nothing but ideology.

The extreme right - obviously - is still free to spew their hatred. And that's what they do, with or without Holocaust denial. They have moved on anyway, since it's no longer PC to hate on jews. They found new groups to hate, groups that they think are hated by the population also. Such as muslims or immigrants. The message is still the same and if the laws against Holocaust denial were rescinded, only a select few skinheads would make use of their new freedoms.
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25-03-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 08:38 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Leela

Sometimes people need to just go with the spirit of what one is saying and not worry about taking apart the particulars. You called it a rant from the get-go.

When someone goes on a rant you either give them a high five or the finger. Getting all "yeah but" about it is bad form.

I'm giving you the high five. Let's let people speak their fucking minds.

I think that she is Fred, but I'd get peeved also if people started to take only parts that I used as examples to basically call me something I'm not.
People who do that are really no bettered then most extreme theists I've debated who will take one part out of all the reasons why I don't believe in their God to 'prove me wrong' or call me a 'satanist'.

I've learned with these people you can't really do much of anything, so I let them speak their minds. But she could clarify what she said, and she did. Rant or not.

A rant is something a person is ticked off about and need to get it off their chest. People will either hi five you or give you the finger. But, the person still can replay and still can debate.

But, I'm not trying to start a fight, I'd prefer not to start arguments with people here. That can get messy. Unsure

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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25-03-2017, 12:31 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 10:36 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Robvalue

There aren't two sides to Holocaust debate, cause there is nothing to debate. Holocaust is fact, just like Earth havig moon is fact.

And for dog sake what "truth". Shoah is fact, and you can't disagree with facts. At best you can try to deny them or ignore them but that's all.

Ignorant nazis being forced to be more careful with their words by law isn't something that I would call totalitarian. I may not entirely agree with German law, but I won't shed a tear over nazi scumbags having harder time hurting other with words.

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Yet atheists can use the fact nazis believed in God as a form of debate with theists... Unsure

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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25-03-2017, 01:15 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 12:28 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  
(25-03-2017 08:38 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Leela
I think that she is Fred
I'll forgive the "she" because you don't know me or Fred. Also not that it matters to this discussion but there is a rule here that everybody is allowed only one account. I have been on this forum for six years. You don't think that me or ImFred or both of us would have been banned during all this time if we were the same person? Big Grin If you don't trust them to be proactive on it, go ahead and report me and ImFred. See if we get banned Wink
Anyway thanks for bring the first one, other than Fred, to acknowledge what a rant is.

Now about what is true and what is not. For the purpose of having an argument, there is no problem with one person being right and one person being wrong. That is why we still have arguments over the existence of a god and that is why we still have people around that actually believe the earth is flat. We let them have a go with their side of the discussion and we let them fail. We get annoyed at the same old shit but we still let them talk. If I would make it illegal to say that the earth is flat, do you think it would change anything? I seriously doubt that. I am pretty sure that people would still have that opinion and they would still discuss it.

There is a German song called "Die Gedanken sind frei" (The thoughts are free)
Here is the English version. It's not an exact translation but still pretty accurate. It pretty much hits the nail on the head. You can think what you want and nothing can ever stop what you think (no law, no dectator, no walls, etc)... Just what I said previously.
Die gedanken sind frei
My thoughts freely flower
Die gedanken sind frei
My thoughts give me power
No scholar can map them
No hunter can trap them
No man can deny
Die gedanken sind frei
I think as I please
And this gives me pleasure
My conscience decrees
This right I must treasure
My thoughts will not cater
To duke or dictator
No man can deny
Die gedanken sind frei
Tyrants can take me
And throw me in prison
My thoughts will burst forth
Like blossoms in season
Foundations may crumble
And structures may tumble
But free men shall cry
Die gedanken sind frei

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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25-03-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 12:31 PM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  
(25-03-2017 10:36 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Robvalue

There aren't two sides to Holocaust debate, cause there is nothing to debate. Holocaust is fact, just like Earth havig moon is fact.

And for dog sake what "truth". Shoah is fact, and you can't disagree with facts. At best you can try to deny them or ignore them but that's all.

Ignorant nazis being forced to be more careful with their words by law isn't something that I would call totalitarian. I may not entirely agree with German law, but I won't shed a tear over nazi scumbags having harder time hurting other with words.

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Yet atheists can use the fact nazis believed in God as a form of debate with theists... Unsure

And how exactly one thing is tied to another?

Trying to make some strawman? Try harder.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-03-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 01:15 PM)Leela Wrote:  Die gedanken sind frei

You do realize when this song first came up? Around 1780 when there really was a need for freedom of thought.

Today we can't deny the Holocaust but I've yet to find any other topic being taboo, short of outright insulting someone in public or threaten to kill them. Insulting because someone might sue me for slander. But that's about all.

Even the Holocaust denial needs the general public to become a felony. You need to make a public speech for being indicted.
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25-03-2017, 02:45 PM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2017 02:55 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
I'm not saying there is any real debate to be had. I'm just saying censoring some for being "wrong" is stupid. It would be like gagging creationists.

As much fun as that would be.

(Edit: I'm talking about a blanket legal policy of course. I'm not saying any private venue should ever have to give floor time to nonsense.)

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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25-03-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
Quote:If you don't trust them to be proactive on it, go ahead and report me and ImFred. See if we get banned

Hold up a goddamn minute!
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25-03-2017, 03:08 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 02:45 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm not saying there is any real debate to be had. I'm just saying censoring some for being "wrong" is stupid. It would be like gagging creationists.

As much fun as that would be.

Whoever deny Holocaust isn't "wrong" but wrong, or lying. I see nothing stupid in making nazis life little harder.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-03-2017, 03:17 PM
RE: A mockery called "free speech"
(25-03-2017 03:08 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Whoever deny Holocaust isn't "wrong" but wrong, or lying. I see nothing stupid in making nazis life little harder.

Personally I don't see any harm in an asshole or an idiot flying their real colors. As I said, the extreme right has moved on anyway. Their hatred is directed at other groups today. The classical Holocaust denying nazi is a dying out breed. But that doesn't say the ideology is dead. They still use the same slogans. They just swapped the word jew for muslim or immigrant. Which leads to peculiar alliances. The extreme right feels comfortable visiting Israel these days. Why, because they meet brothers in hatred there. If the current grovernment of Israel is finally gone and replaced by real democrats again, they won't be so eager to go there. And they won't be as welcome.
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