A modest proposal for gun control
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24-12-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
I reiterate: What does this have to do with the discussion? What parts of the video(s) are supposed to be relevant?

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24-12-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 03:15 PM)Vosur Wrote:  What does any of that have to do with anything we've been talking about? The first video isn't even working.
The point is that you can't prove that gun control prevents gun violence. There are countries with high gun control and low gun violence (albeit high rates of other violent crime) and countries with low gun control and high gun violence. There are also countries with high gun control and high gun violence. Anti gun folks are cherry picking the stats they want to make their case. They suggest things like how the UK has high gun control and lower gun violence than the US while ignoring other violent crime in the UK. They suggest that banning guns will lower gun violence while most all mass shootings occur in areas where guns are banned like schools. They ignore incidents like in China where kids are stabbed to death in school or shot to death in Norway at a camp. The ignore the 800,000 - 2.5 Million cases in the US where a person with a gun prevented a crime. They always have these knee jerk reactions built up on emotion when they have no evidence that gun bans or strict regulations actually prevent gun homicide. You cannot provide any evidence that any shooting that has ever taken place wouldn't have happened if guns were banned. You also cannot prove that had a shooter not had access to a gun they would have abandoned their goals of killing someone. It is true that the murder rate per capita is higher in the US than in the UK. And it is true that many of them are done with a gun. But there is no evidence to support the claim that guns are the cause or that the accessibility to guns is the cause. And any evidence proposed is easily debunked by pointing out that the Swiss have very lax gun laws and low crime and Mexico has very strict gun laws and very high crime.

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24-12-2012, 04:39 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 04:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I reiterate: What does this have to do with the discussion? What parts of the video(s) are supposed to be relevant?
It sounds like you didn't watch the videos. The first directly refutes claims you made regarding crime in the US vs other countries as well as the success (or lack thereof) of gun control throughout developed countries. The second is reputable first hand testimony regarding gun homicide in areas of low gun control vs areas with high. And I use the Piers Morgan video because it highlights the emotional disregard for facts in this debate.

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24-12-2012, 05:02 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 04:35 PM)germanyt Wrote:  The point is that you can't prove that gun control prevents gun violence.
I was under the impression that I have already done that.

(24-12-2012 04:35 PM)germanyt Wrote:  There are countries with high gun control and low gun violence (albeit high rates of other violent crime) and countries with low gun control and high gun violence. There are also countries with high gun control and high gun violence.
This is not the case for the European countries we've discussed about.

(24-12-2012 04:35 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Anti gun folks are cherry picking the stats they want to make their case. They suggest things like how the UK has high gun control and lower gun violence than the US while ignoring other violent crime in the UK. They suggest that banning guns will lower gun violence while most all mass shootings occur in areas where guns are banned like schools. They ignore incidents like in China where kids are stabbed to death in school or shot to death in Norway at a camp. The ignore the 800,000 - 2.5 Million cases in the US where a person with a gun prevented a crime. They always have these knee jerk reactions built up on emotion when they have no evidence that gun bans or strict regulations actually prevent gun homicide.
Gladly I'm not one of "them".

(24-12-2012 04:35 PM)germanyt Wrote:  You cannot provide any evidence that any shooting that has ever taken place wouldn't have happened if guns were banned. You also cannot prove that had a shooter not had access to a gun they would have abandoned their goals of killing someone.
In order to do that, I'd have to travel back in time, regulate guns more strictly and see if the shooting still occurred. For what reason are you pointing out the obvious?

(24-12-2012 04:35 PM)germanyt Wrote:  It is true that the murder rate per capita is higher in the US than in the UK. And it is true that many of them are done with a gun. But there is no evidence to support the claim that guns are the cause or that the accessibility to guns is the cause.
Guns are not the cause of the homicides? Of course they are, take a look at the statistics I've cited.

(24-12-2012 04:35 PM)germanyt Wrote:  And any evidence proposed is easily debunked by pointing out that the Swiss have very lax gun laws and low crime and Mexico has very strict gun laws and very high crime.
How is cherry-picking one country out of more than two dozen "debunking" all the evidence again? Almost all European countries with strict gun laws also have a low number of firearm related homicides. That there are going to be exceptions should be apparent.

As for Mexico: We are discussing the gun crime rates of first-world countries, hence why the crime rates in developing countries are irrelevant.

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24-12-2012, 05:17 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 05:02 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Guns are not the cause of the homicides? Of course they are, take a look at the statistics I've cited.
LOL I'm done.

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24-12-2012, 05:22 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 04:39 PM)germanyt Wrote:  It sounds like you didn't watch the videos. The first directly refutes claims you made regarding crime in the US vs other countries as well as the success (or lack thereof) of gun control throughout developed countries.
All I can say to that is: No, it doesn't. Neither Russia, nor Mexico, nor China, nor Brazil are developed countries.

"In common practice, Japan in Asia, Canada and the United States in northern America, Australia and New Zealand in Oceania, and Europe are considered "developed" regions or areas. In international trade statistics, the Southern African Customs Union is also treated as a developed region and Israel as a developed country; countries emerging from the former Yugoslavia are treated as developing countries; and countries of Central Europe and of the Commonwealth of Independent States (Russian Federation, Ukraine, Belarus, and Central Asia; code 172) in Europe are not included under either developed or developing regions."
-UN

(24-12-2012 04:39 PM)germanyt Wrote:  The second is reputable first hand testimony regarding gun homicide in areas of low gun control vs areas with high.
Are you referring to this article?

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24-12-2012, 05:24 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 05:17 PM)germanyt Wrote:  LOL I'm done.
Thanks for playing. Rolleyes

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24-12-2012, 06:27 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 12:41 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(22-12-2012 11:22 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  My modest proposal:
  • Concealed weaponry is forbidden.
  • Weapons on federal property are forbidden.
  • Gun shows are forbidden.
  • The unlicensed, unauthorized, and/or online sale of ammunition is forbidden.
  • Depending on the type, size, and variant of the firearm, a reasonable limit on ammunition is required.
  • Once ammunition is discharged, spent casings must be returned to the the manufacturer.
  • When a firearm is used, the citizen is required to file a report and to attend a firearm safety seminar.
  • An annual week-long firearm safety class is required.
  • A single weapon may only be registered to a single family.
  • The weapon may not be more than a 5mm handgun.
  • The weapon's magazine size may not contain more than 17 rounds.
  • The federal police will monitor ammunition purchases (quantity and caliber will be logged), much like they monitor fertilizer purchases.
  • The weapon may not be semi or fully automatic.
  • The weapon may not be a shotgun or rifle.
  • The firearm must be registered by the local, state, and federal police.
  • You may not have a history of mental illness.
  • You must have a filed psychiatric evaluation before legal possession of a firearm.
  • The firearm must be locked inside a bullet-proof case.
  • The police must check annually for the possession of the firearm.
  • Justification is required for the possession of a firearm.
  • Weapons tax, ammunition tax, and discharge tax are mandatory, no exceptions based on income or economic class.
  • Personal transfer of firearms is forbidden.
  • Weapons may not be inherited via legal will. Upon the owners death, the firearm will be confiscated by state police.
  • If the weapon is found in the possession of another individual, with unlawful transfer, both the owner and perpetrator will be sentenced for an appropriate time in federal prison.
  • Hunting rifles must be rented at a designated hunting area, both the spent casings and the weapon are to be returned (issued casings will be counted).
  • An annual psychiatric evaluation must be submitted.
None of that would have stopped Lanza from killing people.
If you are implying that he would have used some other means of killing the children, yes. It would have also made it much more difficult, and probably would have resulted in fewer deaths.

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24-12-2012, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2012 03:24 PM by TheBlackKnight.)
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 09:21 AM)namiloveyou Wrote:  Nobody needs to own a gun in modern society.

It's 2012, not 1812.

Or let's cut to chase here. it's only small-penised men who want to "look bad" by owning plenty of guns. So what about the women?
Wow. We hear this same kind of bullshit from beta types in reference to large pickup trucks(or big muscles,or just success in general). The bigger the tires and lift, the more they are compensating for something else. Did you really have to take it back to high school on this one?

Using the word"need" makes your response dull bc nothing in our Bill of Rights has to do with need. We all know what needs are. They surely arnt freedom of speech and the right to a speedy trial.
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25-12-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: A modest proposal for gun control
(24-12-2012 06:27 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-12-2012 12:41 PM)germanyt Wrote:  None of that would have stopped Lanza from killing people.
If you are implying that he would have used some other means of killing the children, yes. It would have also made it much more difficult, and probably would have resulted in fewer deaths.


Which shows that guns are a problem, but not the problem.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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