A modest proposal for gun control

[TheBeardedDude]

(18-12-2012 01:01 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I argue that comparing European nations with the US is tenuous as well, since one of these categories has regulated civilian weapon ownership since at least the 13th or 14th century, while the other has had permissive firearm ownership for its entire history.

Because they still adhere to their 13th or 14th century laws regarding weapons?

Your argument is that they have been doing it longer, so it doesn't compare?

[Phaedrus]

My argument is that they've always had restrictions on weapons. There has never been wide-spread and permissive ownership of firearms in Europe, except in isolated pockets for short periods. They never had millions of guns floating around to begin with, let alone modern ones.

The US never had real laws on firearm ownership until the start of the 20th century, outside of town ordinances. Guns are a part of the history of the country, it's in the Constitution, and there are millions of gun owners with millions of guns.

The two situations are not really comparable. A system that might work in one might not work in the other.

[TheBeardedDude]

(18-12-2012 01:19 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  My argument is that they've always had restrictions on weapons. There has never been wide-spread and permissive ownership of firearms in Europe, except in isolated pockets for short periods. They never had millions of guns floating around to begin with, let alone modern ones.

The US never had real laws on firearm ownership until the start of the 20th century, outside of town ordinances. Guns are a part of the history of the country, it's in the Constitution, and there are millions of gun owners with millions of guns.

The two situations are not really comparable. A system that might work in one might not work in the other.

Australia had widespread gun ownership and implemented a buy-back program to reduce the number of guns by 1/5. They have seen appreciable drops in gun violence and gun assisted suicide. Or did you not read that article?

[Logica Humano]

If the American people would stop ignoring the correlation and facts, this would not be an issue. Strict gun laws are the answer, ignoring a major problem is not the answer. The United States is one of the most violent first-world powers on the planet.

[TheBeardedDude]

(18-12-2012 01:23 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If the American people would stop ignoring the correlation and facts, this would not be an issue. Strict gun laws are the answer, ignoring a major problem is not the answer. The United States is one of the most violent first-world powers on the planet.

And worst educated and most religious. People on this site will generally agree with these two, but become very "religious-like" when it comes to guns.

Is the gun culture in the US a religion? I am not the first to propose that.

[Logica Humano]

I would not go as far as to describe gun culture as a religion, though the Church of the National Rifle Association does have a nice ring to it.

[Phaedrus]

(18-12-2012 01:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  

(18-12-2012 01:19 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  My argument is that they've always had restrictions on weapons. There has never been wide-spread and permissive ownership of firearms in Europe, except in isolated pockets for short periods. They never had millions of guns floating around to begin with, let alone modern ones.

The US never had real laws on firearm ownership until the start of the 20th century, outside of town ordinances. Guns are a part of the history of the country, it's in the Constitution, and there are millions of gun owners with millions of guns.

The two situations are not really comparable. A system that might work in one might not work in the other.

Australia had widespread gun ownership and implemented a buy-back program to reduce the number of guns by 1/5. They have seen appreciable drops in gun violence and gun assisted suicide. Or did you not read that article?

Here's some other figures, which do not contradict your figures, but reveal other patterns and information.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

[TheBeardedDude]

(18-12-2012 01:35 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  

(18-12-2012 01:22 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Australia had widespread gun ownership and implemented a buy-back program to reduce the number of guns by 1/5. They have seen appreciable drops in gun violence and gun assisted suicide. Or did you not read that article?

Here's some other figures, which do not contradict your figures, but reveal other patterns and information.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

Numbers! I can sink my teeth into this. Now to find out where to download it from and to begin.

[TheBeardedDude]

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/%7...acts11.pdf
Figures 10 and 13 here


http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/...DE00256331

Figure c8.10 for this one as a comparison with the previous paper. They show a 20 year trend towards decreasing rates of victims killed by firearm. Starting around '97-98 in particular while flatlined prior to that.

[Chas]

(18-12-2012 12:39 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, while these countries have very high murder rates, these countries also have big issues with drug cartels and the drug industry in general. Asserting that restriction of guns in these countries has done nothing to curb murder rates is to completely ignore the inability of these governments to head off the drug cartels.

And no ability to enforce gun laws.