A new way to insult surgeons
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02-02-2014, 06:16 AM
RE: A new way to insult surgeons
See my point above about keeping the superstitious practice privately - I think this is the ideal.

You are right that if the science based skills are not disrupted then it should not be a problem to stick whatever art they want.
However there is the fact of disrespecting others. Clearly if this was state run then it should be banned to have the religious art due to respect for the rights of those who find the art offensive.
However if it was a private practice then one could argue (like a libertarian)they should do as they please, after all it is private funding and there is a choice whether or not to go to such a clinic.

2 cases below: - the Christian art maybe a mixture of the two depending on the context:

case 1:
Decorating a private surgery with alien abduction iconography where the doctors are UFOologists - they are qualified doctors and do good science but are inspired by alien encounters and believe our science came from the aliens. Should the surgery be covered in alien iconography ? What if the locals who paid for the surgery believe the alien story ? (not that far fetched, I might be describing a scientology surgery)

case 2
Decorating a surgery with third Reich Nazi iconography believing that striving for Nazi values is what inspires the doctors to perform at their best (and they are doing legit science/medicine)

I guess that some people would not mind either way and still go to the surgery if they knew it has good outcomes (science) and they didn't mind funding the bizarre or offensive surgeons.

On the contrary there are cases like this - some al-Qaeda operative may send their child to a patriotic American hospital knowing they have good medical outcomes even though they despise or are offended by the American patriotism ? - at the end of the day its their choice to go to the clinic.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-02-2014, 06:18 AM
RE: A new way to insult surgeons
(01-02-2014 08:01 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 05:26 AM)Juv Wrote:  If they perform successful treatment, then they can let whatever seep into their thinking. You're complaining for the hell of it.

what if they don't perform successful treatment ?
What if there is negligence ?

If there Is negligence then the doctor is blamed, they don't say "Oh Jesus caused the negligence"

If there is failure - the doctor is blamed for not being able to do more or "science isn't good enough" - even if it is God which badly designed humans in a botched up manner.

If the doctor is successful then its "thank God"

You're projecting here, I think. If negligence based on religious belief is occurring, it will be investigated; in the US how would a total lack of medical accountability be acceptable?

You're totally correct in pointing out that some of the public will blame medical success on divine intervention, while any bad outcomes will be blamed on the doc's lack of skill, but this is no reason to remove religious art, quotes, etc. from hospitals. There is no evidence that crap can interfere with a skilled physician.
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02-02-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: A new way to insult surgeons
(02-02-2014 06:01 AM)Lightvader Wrote:  Sooo,if there are complications in a surgery,blame jesus?

Yes, the Grace of Jesus was withdrawn at the time of the surgery. The Great Healer was negligent. As it happens Jesus has a pretty bad record for screwing up biological designs.

Also consider - if God existed one of the reasons why medicine is so hard & risky is because of a booby trapped biological design. I can think of hundreds of examples.
Eg there could be a counterfactual "divine" biology were God did not booby trap the biology to thwart the attempts of humans.
Eg what if penicillin ONLY acted SPECIFICALLY to bacterial cell walls of susceptible pathological bacteria and did not interfere with any of the human's other metabolic process ? We would not have allergies or any side effects !
Often the reason why medicine has difficulty is due to many parts of the body sharing similar receptors and pathways making it very hard to be specific to one organ or receptor site without causing problems elsewhere.

Eg in Parkinson's Levadopa is ONLY required to areas lacking dopamine eg in substantia nigra. It is extremely difficult to be so specific without altering dopamine in all sorts of other areas at the same time (causing hallucinations for example)
If God designed this then he deliberately made if messy and difficult and then humans are blamed for not getting it right !!!

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-02-2014, 06:31 AM
RE: A new way to insult surgeons
(02-02-2014 06:18 AM)Juv Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 08:01 AM)Baruch Wrote:  what if they don't perform successful treatment ?
What if there is negligence ?

If there Is negligence then the doctor is blamed, they don't say "Oh Jesus caused the negligence"

If there is failure - the doctor is blamed for not being able to do more or "science isn't good enough" - even if it is God which badly designed humans in a botched up manner.

If the doctor is successful then its "thank God"

You're projecting here, I think. If negligence based on religious belief is occurring, it will be investigated; in the US how would a total lack of medical accountability be acceptable?

You're totally correct in pointing out that some of the public will blame medical success on divine intervention, while any bad outcomes will be blamed on the doc's lack of skill, but this is no reason to remove religious art, quotes, etc. from hospitals. There is no evidence that crap can interfere with a skilled physician.

How can you prove the negligence occurred was due to religious belief or iconography inspired intuitions ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-02-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: A new way to insult surgeons
(02-02-2014 06:31 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 06:18 AM)Juv Wrote:  You're projecting here, I think. If negligence based on religious belief is occurring, it will be investigated; in the US how would a total lack of medical accountability be acceptable?

You're totally correct in pointing out that some of the public will blame medical success on divine intervention, while any bad outcomes will be blamed on the doc's lack of skill, but this is no reason to remove religious art, quotes, etc. from hospitals. There is no evidence that crap can interfere with a skilled physician.

How can you prove the negligence occurred was due to religious belief or iconography inspired intuitions ?

Then again - IF a scientific method was followed, with the best rational medical knowledge available then it would make little difference if there was a genuine unknown dilemma if the religious doctor "received a divine calling" inspired by the iconography or a secular doctor just tossed a coin on the table.
In such a case both should be treated the same, it makes no difference.
(I come across such cases regularly eg if the evidence for radiotherapy or chemotherapy can both be argued for, person cannot have both and the evidence is undecided between the two - one has to choose one or the other.)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-02-2014, 06:58 AM
RE: A new way to insult surgeons
(02-02-2014 06:16 AM)Baruch Wrote:  See my point above about keeping the superstitious practice privately - I think this is the ideal.

You are right that if the science based skills are not disrupted then it should not be a problem to stick whatever art they want.
However there is the fact of disrespecting others. Clearly if this was state run then it should be banned to have the religious art due to respect for the rights of those who find the art offensive.
However if it was a private practice then one could argue (like a libertarian)they should do as they please, after all it is private funding and there is a choice whether or not to go to such a clinic.

2 cases below: - the Christian art maybe a mixture of the two depending on the context:

case 1:
Decorating a private surgery with alien abduction iconography where the doctors are UFOologists - they are qualified doctors and do good science but are inspired by alien encounters and believe our science came from the aliens. Should the surgery be covered in alien iconography ? What if the locals who paid for the surgery believe the alien story ? (not that far fetched, I might be describing a scientology surgery)

case 2
Decorating a surgery with third Reich Nazi iconography believing that striving for Nazi values is what inspires the doctors to perform at their best (and they are doing legit science/medicine)

I guess that some people would not mind either way and still go to the surgery if they knew it has good outcomes (science) and they didn't mind funding the bizarre or offensive surgeons.

On the contrary there are cases like this - some al-Qaeda operative may send their child to a patriotic American hospital knowing they have good medical outcomes even though they despise or are offended by the American patriotism ? - at the end of the day its their choice to go to the clinic.

True enough, the possibility of disrespecting those who are likely to use the hospital can't be thrown away easily.

Personally I would question a hospital medical staffs sanity if I was a patient brought into a room with UFO or Nazi style art....although I probably would not feel disrespected. As a non theist, I'm aware there is not a big gap between believing in Christian mythology, and believing in alien abduction, Scientology, Nordic mythology, etc. Strict lines are hard to draw.

In this country however, there is a reputable history of (conventional) religious based hospitals providing quality medical care.
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