A not so common defense of Christianity
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12-09-2016, 01:55 PM
A not so common defense of Christianity
Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.
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12-09-2016, 02:13 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe.

Depending on your definitions, atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive. Many here identify as agnostic atheists (don't believe in any god claims but don't claim to know there is nothing that might qualify).

Quote:So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum.

Why is my spidey sense tingling?

Quote:Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that.

The god couldn't eliminate the Nephilim without destroying most of the humans as collateral damage? Seems like a pretty pathetic god.

Quote:He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim.

So his flood gambit failed and he has to order the humans to do his dirty work for him? He's even more pathetic than it sounded.

Quote:I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches?

No argument is really needed as it's transparently made up nonsense. The bible says that the flood was to wipe out the evil humans and the genocides were for various reasons. Nowhere does it say that the Nephilim were the targets. The problem is that it is so badly written that you can read just about anything into it that you want to.

Quote:Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

I don't know what you mean by "is there error morally" but yes, that Yahweh/Jehovah/whatever character is a genocidal maniac.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” -- Richard Dawkins

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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12-09-2016, 02:19 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
If this "god" fella really just wanted to get rid of some people -- wouldn't have been a whole lot simpler just to toss them off the planet and let the vacuum of space do the rest????


....

Think about it -- this character supposedly created the whole of the universe in 7 days --- but can't figure out to get rid of at best a couple of million people, without going through all this rigamarole? AND -- it took 40 days and nights???


Sounds like a "creation savant" to me.......

Not the sort of deity you really want to worship......

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12-09-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim concerning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christian perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

Geez. Where to begin.

First, Enoch isn't part of the Bible. It didn't make the edit. It was part of the tradition leading up to it, so it's less fanfic and more something left on the cutting room floor. But technically, his explanation is non-Biblical for this reason.

It's also non-Biblical because in the case of all those genocides, his assertion that they were all Nephilim is also not part of the Bible.

Third, I this explanation doesn't cover all of the genocide in the Bible. I'm thinking of the firstborn of Egypt here. Definitely an act of genocide, but I don't think even this doctrine claims the Egyptians were Nephilim. I'm also remembering a civil war in... Judges, I think it was... where an entire tribe of Israelites was exterminated.

And fourth... and probably the strongest counterargument yet... SO WHAT? A campaign of extermination against Nephilim WOULD STILL BE GENOCIDE.

But you ask about the moral character of God. This is a much broader question than just whether the Biblical character is a genocidal maniac. There is also:

* The establishment of slavery and rules for slavery, which caused severe harm up until a century or so ago and still has echoes in our society
* The very race-biased favoritism shown towards one race over all others, which has caused severe harm into modern times
* The extremely misogynistic treatment of women, including very explicit instructions for subjugation, which causes severe harm into modern times
* Punishing a criminal's family and descendents for the criminal's crimes
* Endorsement of monarchy, which caused severe harm to society up until a century or two ago, EXPLICITLY as a punishment for rejecting judges
* Widespread death, destruction, plagues, famine, drought, and enslavement for failing to worship him, failing to worship him properly, failing to worship him exclusively, or failing to murder other people who fail in these things.
* In one case, striking a person dead for attempting to STOP the Ark of the Covenant from hitting the ground.

I could go on and on and on and on. When genocide is only the tip of the iceberg, you know it's one evil fucking ugly iceberg.
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12-09-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
I had planned a nice long comment, but unfogged and OLB covered everything. Thanks alot, guys...don't leave any meat on the bone for the rest of us, you savages. Big Grin

It's really hard to debate the bible, for me...not because of its validity, but rather because of its ridiculousness. It's like being asked to debate an Archie comic book...why bother?


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12-09-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
Quote:I could go on and on and on and on. When genocide is only the tip of the iceberg, you know it's one evil fucking ugly iceberg.

LOL Way to pile on, Relt. Bowing Thumbsup Big Grin
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12-09-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 02:26 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  I had planned a nice long comment, but unfogged and OLB covered everything. Thanks alot, guys...don't leave any meat on the bone for the rest of us, you savages. Big Grin

It's really hard to debate the bible, for me...not because of its validity, but rather because of its ridiculousness. It's like being asked to debate an Archie comic book...why bother?


Evil_monster

I say Jughead is smarter than Archie!!!!!

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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12-09-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
Unfogged wrote:

Quote:Why is my spidey sense tingling?

Mine tingleth also.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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12-09-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 02:48 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Unfogged wrote:

Quote:Why is my spidey sense tingling?

Mine tingleth also.

And he knows better than to put an actual link....

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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12-09-2016, 03:07 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 02:28 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(12-09-2016 02:26 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  I had planned a nice long comment, but unfogged and OLB covered everything. Thanks alot, guys...don't leave any meat on the bone for the rest of us, you savages. Big Grin

It's really hard to debate the bible, for me...not because of its validity, but rather because of its ridiculousness. It's like being asked to debate an Archie comic book...why bother?


Evil_monster

I say Jughead is smarter than Archie!!!!!

Who is prettier? Betty or Veronica? Smile
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