A not so common defense of Christianity
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12-09-2016, 03:10 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
You know this... "reasonable" explanation for Noah's ark. There was no global flood.

All the reasonable explanations in the world can't get you away from that - the story is *fiction*. At best you can say that what you're attempting is tortured literary criticism.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-09-2016, 03:13 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

So what are his definitions of Nephilim and how is it OK to kill them?
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12-09-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 03:13 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  how is it OK to kill them?

What??? It's *always* OK to kill anyone God says it's OK to kill. Therefore killing Nephilim is fine. And it doesn't count as genocide. It doesn't count as genocide because they're not people and also God said so.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-09-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

How about the fact that that's not what the text says? Nowhere does it say that.

Fucking apologists. Facepalm

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12-09-2016, 04:24 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

Genesis 6:5-7:

6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

No mention of the Nephilim, the preceding passages state that men's life was shortened because of breeding with Nephilim, but humans, animals, and plants were condemned to die because god was moping. Facepalm

Do you understand just how weak this makes this god? He can only commit indiscriminate genocide, he can't narrow down his murderous rage to only those that committed this "sin".

He can't control any aspect of his own alleged creation. The humans are ignoring him, the fallen angels are ignoring him. It looks like this god is totally ineffectual. Don't give me this nonsense about human choice, this particular genocide involved animals and Nephilim.

Here's an idea, whoever tries to explain anything about this story is basically giving their own interpretation. This is just another way of lying, trying to explain things that don't require any of this nonsense to understand.

It's a made up story that's derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Sumerians made their tale of Ziusudra, the Babylonians took the tale and put in their guy Utnapishtim, then the Hebrews put in their guy Noah.

The earlier, original incarnations of this story showed the Sumerian and Babylonian gods as capricious, small-minded, totally without compassion, Enlil brings the flood about because men were noisy! This is the basis for the Hebrew version, the Hebrews practice the idea of inversion in their stories where they invert older myths to change them when they incorporate it into Hebrew myth.

This is done in the story of Noah where the Hebrews turn the moral tale around and point the finger of blame for the flood at humans instead of the small-minded pricks of the Sumerian pantheon.

The story of Noah is simply a rewrite that tries to make humans the guilty party, but the ORIGINAL story has the idiotic gods as the guilty party. That's why Enki warns Ziusudra of the flood, because the lazy-assed gods would have to make their own food if all of the humans were killed.

This is where it comes from, long before Hebrew myth tried to salvage their god concept from this story and paint humans as bad, Sumerian and Babylonian myth clearly showed these gods as the murderous buffoons that they were.

The sorry apologism for this murderous genocide has been going on for millenia, because the Hebrew chucklefucks couldn't separate their god concept from the genocide of this story, they could only assert that we were the bad guys and their god was perfect and just.

But guess what? They failed!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-09-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 02:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe.

Depending on your definitions, atheist and agnostic are not mutually exclusive. Many here identify as agnostic atheists (don't believe in any god claims but don't claim to know there is nothing that might qualify).

Quote:So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum.

Why is my spidey sense tingling?
Thank you for commenting back! All of your points honestly make sense and I agree, but one more thing I wanted to mention was that Godrules argues since the book of Jude quotes the book of Enoch it's scripture. Therefore, that's(Enoch) where it talks about God killing off the Nephilim not just humans.
Quote:Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that.

The god couldn't eliminate the Nephilim without destroying most of the humans as collateral damage? Seems like a pretty pathetic god.

Quote:He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim.

So his flood gambit failed and he has to order the humans to do his dirty work for him? He's even more pathetic than it sounded.

Quote:I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches?

No argument is really needed as it's transparently made up nonsense. The bible says that the flood was to wipe out the evil humans and the genocides were for various reasons. Nowhere does it say that the Nephilim were the targets. The problem is that it is so badly written that you can read just about anything into it that you want to.

Quote:Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

I don't know what you mean by "is there error morally" but yes, that Yahweh/Jehovah/whatever character is a genocidal maniac.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” -- Richard Dawkins

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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12-09-2016, 05:05 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 02:19 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If this "god" fella really just wanted to get rid of some people -- wouldn't have been a whole lot simpler just to toss them off the planet and let the vacuum of space do the rest????


....

Think about it -- this character supposedly created the whole of the universe in 7 days --- but can't figure out to get rid of at best a couple of million people, without going through all this rigamarole? AND -- it took 40 days and nights???


Sounds like a "creation savant" to me.......

Not the sort of deity you really want to worship......

True, sounds man made to me.

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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12-09-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 02:21 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim concerning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christian perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

Geez. Where to begin.

First, Enoch isn't part of the Bible. It didn't make the edit. It was part of the tradition leading up to it, so it's less fanfic and more something left on the cutting room floor. But technically, his explanation is non-Biblical for this reason.

It's also non-Biblical because in the case of all those genocides, his assertion that they were all Nephilim is also not part of the Bible.

Third, I this explanation doesn't cover all of the genocide in the Bible. I'm thinking of the firstborn of Egypt here. Definitely an act of genocide, but I don't think even this doctrine claims the Egyptians were Nephilim. I'm also remembering a civil war in... Judges, I think it was... where an entire tribe of Israelites was exterminated.

And fourth... and probably the strongest counterargument yet... SO WHAT? A campaign of extermination against Nephilim WOULD STILL BE GENOCIDE.

But you ask about the moral character of God. This is a much broader question than just whether the Biblical character is a genocidal maniac. There is also:

* The establishment of slavery and rules for slavery, which caused severe harm up until a century or so ago and still has echoes in our society
* The very race-biased favoritism shown towards one race over all others, which has caused severe harm into modern times
* The extremely misogynistic treatment of women, including very explicit instructions for subjugation, which causes severe harm into modern times
* Punishing a criminal's family and descendents for the criminal's crimes
* Endorsement of monarchy, which caused severe harm to society up until a century or two ago, EXPLICITLY as a punishment for rejecting judges
* Widespread death, destruction, plagues, famine, drought, and enslavement for failing to worship him, failing to worship him properly, failing to worship him exclusively, or failing to murder other people who fail in these things.
* In one case, striking a person dead for attempting to STOP the Ark of the Covenant from hitting the ground.

I could go on and on and on and on. When genocide is only the tip of the iceberg, you know it's one evil fucking ugly iceberg.

Great Answer! Thank you so much and yes you're right that genocide is only a fraction.

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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12-09-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 03:13 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(12-09-2016 01:55 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Hey everyone! I'm an agnostic who used to be an atheist(Christian before that) and I'm really trying to be as open minded as possible in terms of what I believe and don't believe. So, on YouTube there is a guy who's channel is called Godrules and he discusses some topics that have allegedly been skewed in the bible and lead to atheism he claims( it's interesting and I recommend atheists go check out). The rest of that is for another forum. Anyways his claim converning Noah's ark and the flood is that God isn't genocidal because he was killing off Nephilim in the flood and he uses the book of Enoch and jubilees to "prove" that. He also says that anytime God ordered genocide of a nation in the Old Testament he is really just commanding extermination of the Nephilim. I'm curious what arguments atheists have on this one because I've already heard the Christain perspective, but anyone can comment. Is this what the bible teaches? Or is there error morally and the God of the Old Testament really is a genocidal maniac? Thanks.

So what are his definitions of Nephilim and how is it OK to kill them?
The offspring of fallen angels and human women. They are Giants and apparently their purpose was to corrupt the seedline so Jesus couldn't come from a perfect seed. Genesis 3:15

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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12-09-2016, 05:20 PM
RE: A not so common defense of Christianity
(12-09-2016 05:01 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Thank you for commenting back! All of your points honestly make sense and I agree, but one more thing I wanted to mention was that Godrules argues since the book of Jude quotes the book of Enoch it's scripture. Therefore, that's(Enoch) where it talks about God killing off the Nephilim not just humans.

Tell him to argue that with the various groups that decided over the centuries what to include and what not to include. The bible references a number of things that were not included in the final product (where are the books of the kings of Judah and Israel?). Different groups include different documents right through to today. It isn't our problem that theists can't decide what is and is not scripture.

Enoch may may lay the blame on the Nephilim; Genesis only does that very indirectly and even that's a stretch given the actual text. In the end, it still means that this god could not prevent the Nephilim from screwing up his plan or come up with a better solution than drowning almost everybody. The bible is basically the record of the repeated failures of an incompetent god.

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