A political dilemma about Human Logic
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30-08-2016, 05:59 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2016 06:06 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(29-08-2016 04:20 PM)KerimF Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 02:42 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  I hate 99.9% of our politicians and have little tine for the monarchy but still love my country. I would still fight for it and its people, and what freedoms we have, as best I can.

I am afraid this is followed by almost all common people in every country in the world and not in America only.

Kerim
Actually I am British.

More specifically English, that (once) epitome of imperialism and bullying (we assimilated the other nations on this isle as well). (I am sure a few gunboats would sort the Syrian problems out! [tounge-in-cheek-emoji-needed]. Along with the French and other colonial powers we supplied the basis for much of the present "internal" conflict in the Near and Middle East by forcing borders and assimilation that had no respect for local history. Sometimes forcing conflicting sects to share. We did the same in Africa.

Politicians cause wars, soldiers only fight them. But some soldiers welcome the excuse to get back for historical insults or differences in some countries and cultures - so they are more than willing to do the bidding of the religio-political leaders.

Both Russia and America attempted a "remote control" version of the same policy. China has only done so with regards to Tibet and some islands, so far.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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30-08-2016, 06:16 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(30-08-2016 05:33 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 09:44 PM)julep Wrote:  4) I do not believe in successful, long-term international conspiracies.
What about the global surveillance network that Edward Snowden famously exposed a few years ago? Consider

While that was enraging and disquieting, it doesn't rise to anywhere near an Illuminati-like level. Show me how that network was able to use the information it collected to fix the outcomes of wars, show me the network forcing policy directives on quivering politicians, show me the network actually achieving any unified goal whatsoever, and you'd have more of a point.
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30-08-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(30-08-2016 06:16 AM)julep Wrote:  
(30-08-2016 05:33 AM)Vosur Wrote:  What about the global surveillance network that Edward Snowden famously exposed a few years ago? Consider

While that was enraging and disquieting, it doesn't rise to anywhere near an Illuminati-like level. Show me how that network was able to use the information it collected to fix the outcomes of wars, show me the network forcing policy directives on quivering politicians, show me the network actually achieving any unified goal whatsoever, and you'd have more of a point.

Total agreement.

It should hardly surprise anyone that a government with organizations (CIA, NSA, etc.) willing to engage in programs like COINTELPRO and Operation Chaos, against its own people, not to mention overseas operations (as detailed by Agee, for instance, and written about extensively by many other authors) which would constitute war crimes if committed by any less-powerful nation, and the litany of military "interventions" that can clearly be seen to serve the interests of corporations which effectively own their own set of pocket politicians over the course of the past century, would also be willing to spy on everyone electronically as soon as the capacity to do became available.

But with all that said, there's no secret conspiracy at work here, just secretive (by nature) government organizations doing the bidding of the politicians who are in the pockets of big donors with very obvious agendas.

It certainly doesn't mean the things Kerim is claiming are so. That's the part that makes me so mad about his comments-- it is obvious that I am well-aware of the wrongdoings of my country, and am willing to call them out, and no one here objects to these facts as I present them (they are public record, if you're willing to look, and have been written about by several American authors, including atheists like Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, and Kurt Vonnegut, to name a few)... yet if we will not go all the way to acknowledging the wild speculations of our Syrian friend, Kerim, then we are just blind fools, in his eyes.

It's preposterous.

Kerim, you should be trying a very different approach with us. Instead, you try to paint all Americans (especially since many here are not Americans, though I am) with a very broad paintbrush which does not apply-- especially in atheist/freethinker circles. If you have good, solid evidence, backed by scholars who look into these sorts of questions--and there are many--then please, by all means, present that evidence, and stop blaming us for your failure to present facts rather than conjectures.

Thank you.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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30-08-2016, 07:48 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(30-08-2016 06:16 AM)julep Wrote:  While that was enraging and disquieting, it doesn't rise to anywhere near an Illuminati-like level. Show me how that network was able to use the information it collected to fix the outcomes of wars, show me the network forcing policy directives on quivering politicians, show me the network actually achieving any unified goal whatsoever, and you'd have more of a point.
You're asking me to do something that is virtually impossible. This global surveillance network was first established in the 70s and it took over 40 years for one of the tens of thousands of people involved in this conspiracy to release undeniable proof of its existence and extensive details about the nature of their operations. You can be sure that the NSA will do everything in its power to prevent a leak like this from ever happening again. There are many conspiracy theorists who tried to warn us of this Orwellian nightmare for decades, but they were laughed at and mocked by people like you until it was too late for us to do anything about it. We collectively blew our chance at stopping this nightmare from growing exponentially in the coming decades.

Also, as someone who works in and is passionate about IT, I think that the global surveillance network and the TTP/TTIP together manage to rise to Illuminati-like levels. The NSA, for example, once asked the Japanese government to allow them to modify some of the underwater fiber-optic cables that connect the different continents and which, in combination with the data centers they connect to, make up what we call "the Internet" in order to monitor all Internet and phone traffic in the Asia-Pacific region at the most fundamental level. Most people, including you (no offense), don't have the technical knowledge to understand the horrifying nature of this and many other parts of Snowden's revelations. We are lucky that their request was denied by the Japanese government, but I think it's only a matter of time until someone with more favorable views towards the NSA is elected over there. Meanwhile in Germany, the NSA has built data centers that are able to store several exabytes of collected surveillance information (1 Exabyte = 1,000 Petabyes = 1,000,000 Terabytes = 1,000,000,000 Gigabytes).

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30-08-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
There was an item somewhere that said there was a relationship between the number of positive or negative words used on twitter and fluctuations in the global cash and commodity markets.

So, huge amounts of data hold huge amounts of analysable information if filtered at super-speed by super-computers. So an increase in terms like, "fuck/bugger/sod/damn/kill/sack ............." (fill in your least liked politician) indicates a degree of increasing displeasure about that person. Probably better than any poll can do.

Chances are most of your personal detail stuff is safe but political and commercial policies and strategies could well be influenced. Unless, of course, they can flag any item holding words of especial interest for extra, still automatic, filtering and storing in whole.

Bit like the CCTV arguments here in the UK, the most surveiled nation in the world some say, the technology has potential for both good and evil. Since I am such a goody-goody (Tongue) it bothers me not. Yet.

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30-08-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(29-08-2016 08:24 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I skim through them as you're repeating your conspiracy shit.

We are much alike. You, too, keep repeating the broken song titled: "conspiracy shit" without adding the real version of any fact I presented that you personal consider as being true and real and by using your own words.

(29-08-2016 08:24 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  While your words won't convince others I think idiocy should be opposed, though I'm aware of futility of it; you're either troll or you believe in whatever you write too much.

Where is the problem?
You also believe too much the stories that suited your desires and dreams even if the facts on the ground contradict most parts in them.
If you will decide someday to be serious, you can always pick up a fact I mentioned and show me the true version you have in mind as clearly as I do.

But, truth be said, I also understand that not all people in the world could be safe if they decide to be sincere with others about matters related to the powerful/rich class (political or religious) in their environment. And the safety of any member here is more important to me than anything we may say.

(29-08-2016 08:24 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  It is reality that we are different. I'm not conspiracy theorist for example, neither I'm crank thinking that "personal logic" is sound basis for making judgement about things that I have no knowledge about. Without sources your claims about history are worth nothing. You're free to think otherwise but then we will end in realm of fantasy where all stories could be true.

I am afraid that repeating the word 'conspiracy' can convince those who are not interested in what is real happening in the world in the first place.
For example, Muslims believe that by repeating 5 times daily (actually more) the expression "Allah the great or the greatest" makes Mohammad's god the greatest god known by men. But, on the ground, the US System proved (via various videos as usual, as of the dancers and confessions) that this Allah decided on 9/11/2001 to be real idiot by inspiring one of the silliest crimes in human history since it was committed against his own believers! No one in the world can deny that a real beast against humanity only can inspire the 9/11 attacks which were planned, therefore, to be against Islam and not against America.

Anyway, it is not my fault you are not allowed knowing that the 9/11 terrorists have been (still are) terrorizing, attacking and killing (since year 2010) millions of non-American civilians (besides their national forces). So while you repeat... conspiracy theory... conspiracy theory... Al-Qaeda groups in all over the world are serving the diabolic dreams of the powerful/rich American Elite in front of the entire world without problem. I am afraid that even some American communities could also be attacked by terrorists (now in real) anytime their system learn they start having serious doubts about the American endless series of 'War on Terror'.

Your stupid friend, Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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30-08-2016, 09:04 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(30-08-2016 08:39 AM)KerimF Wrote:  I am afraid that repeating the word 'conspiracy' can convince those who are not interested in what is real happening in the world in the first place.

Pause right there.

Kerim, what makes you think we here are not interested in what is really happening in the world?

Because we don't completely agree with you? Because we question the basis of your conclusions? Because you think all Westerners are so gullible that we fall completely for the propaganda of our leaders, despite the fact that I have repeatedly listed respected American authors who have written extensively on the subject?

(Edit to Add: You're essentially arguing that our brightest dissenting voices know less than you do. Seriously, think about that.)

I know it feels good to think you have such great insight that you have it all figured out, but that's not how it works, with us. We can speculate about what we don't know, yes, but we refuse to operate in any realm of thought without evidence. You can't come in here with claims about magic, or gods, or dragons, or Illuminati, or whatever, without good evidence and a solid model that backs up the evidence.

That goes for us, that goes for you. Period. So stop trying to ever-so-politely tell us that we are blind or ignorant. That is simply not the case. Stop it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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30-08-2016, 09:10 AM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2016 02:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(29-08-2016 03:41 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Sorry, didn't you always live in USA?

You have never lived or travelled anywhere, I assume from the way you talk. You certainly have never traveled extensively, like many of us have.

Quote:I used getting such a kind reply from Americans mostly, mainly those who had the chance seeing outside America via their video monitors only.

And your point is what ?

Quote:Why they like doing that... God only knows. In other words, no one knows since God doesn't exist.

Complete nonsense.
A non sequitur if ever I saw one.
You are dismissed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-08-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
Thank you, now things are made straight.

(29-08-2016 09:44 PM)julep Wrote:  1) Yes, I was watching TV and heard Bush make his first statements about the 9/11 terrorist attacks; since I have a working brain, I did not think that those statements were in any way factually definitive. I can believe that someone (Cheney?) helped Bush with what to say, since I'm not sure Bush can successfully tie his shoes unassisted.

I have nothing against Bush or else, I just present what I saw/hear and how I interpreted them logically (sorry, I know this last word started teasing many here).

If, at that time, Bush addressed the nation with one of his two statements, there would be nothing wrong.

[1]
Confirming before all Americans that the first crash on the WTC tower was a civil accident is by itself an innocent statement; due to confusion for example.
[2]
Also addressing a personal doubt to all Americans that the crash could be a terrorist attack is also by itself another innocent statement based on uncertain information.

The real catastrophe is combining these two statements in sequence and in one short speech right after the surprising crash. Both took advantage of two innocent US laws as shown next:

The first one was actually a clear presidential command to all American forces (actually their top officers) not to intervene in any way with the accident (even via phone calls or alike... for example contacting airports).

The second one was a reminder for all Americans that in case something will happen and prove that the WTC, hence America, was attacked by foreign terrorists (as Bush said... we will run after them even to the end of the world), he (actually the White House) will get the US Presidential Veto Right. This US Veto makes of the US President a temporary legitimate dictator over all Americans (even in movies, a dictator outside America cannot be given such a powerful legitimate right Wink ). Naturally, the second airplane had the chance to fly in peace for about 20 minutes before it ended up hitting the second WTC tower (the twin towers run as photocopies of each other in case one is damaged... so the two had to be destroyed... besides their little brother, the juridical building #7 that has its own story). At the moment the second crash occurred, Bush became the top saviour/ruler of America without any problem. Also Anthrax played a crucial role on that day since there were some patriotic Americans who were above this US Presidential Veto Right. I better stop here Wink

In brief, without this well prepared short speech, the world couldn't witness what we call now the 9/11 attacks over America.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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30-08-2016, 10:04 AM
RE: A political dilemma about Human Logic
(30-08-2016 09:10 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 03:41 PM)KerimF Wrote:  Sorry, didn't you always live in USA?

You have never lived or travelled anywhere, I assume from the way you talk. You certainly have never traveled extensively, like many of us have.

You are right, I personally don't like travelling.
But I had the chance to visit France twice, Turkey once and China twice.

Truth be said, I was also invited, many decades ago, to live and work in USA (as a researcher in an American corporation in California). But since I was never interested in becoming rich and/or famous, there was no reason for me to move from a place where I live real free; I don't mean living the sexual freedom as our cats on the streets do, possessing guns for self defence as it is the case in wild jungles or insulting those whose views oppose mine Big Grin

On the other hand may I ask you if you had a chance visiting Syria?
I bet you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't be surprised of what I write Wink while I fully understand and even expect your reactions.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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