A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
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21-03-2015, 06:51 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2015 07:01 AM by cactus.)
A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
A lot of times I'll hear people say things like: "Think the Bible is a guide for morality? Well look at all this bad stuff that God allowed his creation to do." Then they'll talk about Lot sleeping with his daughters or something else that's bad but maybe not explicitly "commanded" by God.

However, if someone were to ask me "why are you an atheist?" I doubt I'd ever touch on the subject of "the Bible says that humans did evil stuff." The immediate response I'd get would be something along the lines of "exactly, you just proved my point for me, because original sin," or "well yeah, people have free will, you silly atheist. Didn't you read the Bible?" or "even the angels have free will," or they'd pull cherry-picked examples out of their ass, like this list:
[Image: God-can-use-you.jpg]
which is of course ignoring all that bad stuff that God himself did, or ordered people to do.

Has anyone here felt like they've been able to use "a perfect God wouldn't have allowed his people to do evil things" as a persuasive talking point, or maybe been convinced by such an argument yourself? It seems to me that it isn't really meant to be a persuasive argument on its own, but rather something you might touch on very, very briefly (because Christians are so quick to dismiss it outright and still feel as if they're making a totally valid point) and use it as a jumping-off point to talk about the evil stuff that God actually does in the Bible. Of course their cookie-cutter response to that would be "God works in mysterious ways," which is basically the equivalent of saying "I'm not even listening to you, so please shut up now."

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21-03-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
They operate under divine command theory, if their god commands it, it is moral by default, it's simply our lowly human intellect that fails to comprehend this god's ways.

This leads to Christians stating that the worldwide genocide of the flood myth was "just" or that they would kill their children if they knew their god was commanding it as they maintain the concept of "objective" morality is somehow better than a morality derived by reason and rational human constraints.

We have a couple of theists running around this forum that do just that.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-03-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
I have used that argument many times. I found it works best in conjunction with asking the believer to imagine they were an all loving and powerful god.

I find the biggest sticking point is that they refuse to think of a world without god. When you can get them to act like they are god, and talk about the evil, and what they would do to prevent it, it forces them to think about the situation and not just fall back on an answer their pastor gave them. If you can get them to do that, then you're one step further towards getting them to realize that the world makes sense without a god, and makes no sense if an omniscient, omnipotent, loving god is in control.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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21-03-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
I think I agree with TheInquisition. I argue that there is no god based on the principle that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is ZERO evidence for a god. I argue that the Christian God cannot exist because the description includes aspects that are logically mutually exclusive. And I argue that the Bible is unreliable because it contains demonstrable falsehoods and internal contradictions.

I would never use the Bible (an unreliable book) to demonstrate any truths about the real world.

The Bible does have some pretty good stuff in it, though. And a good way to deconvert theists is to get them to read the thing. I mean really read it, understand what it says, and realize how inconsistent it is and how contrary to the picture of God they get in church. If someone believes in God and believes that the Bible is his book, then really reading it will show them how unlike their conception of God the book is.

The Bible does not prove that there is no God. But most fundies have beliefs about God that are contradicted by the book they believe to be his inerrant word. That can shake their faith and get them to start thinking.

My own religious friends, however, do not regard the Bible as inerrant or even generally accurate. They regard the Bible as stories told by people two- and three-thousand years ago, testaments to the faith of those people, rather than truths about the world.

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21-03-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
(21-03-2015 07:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  They operate under divine command theory, if their god commands it, it is moral by default, it's simply our lowly human intellect that fails to comprehend this god's ways.

This leads to Christians stating that the worldwide genocide of the flood myth was "just" or that they would kill their children if they knew their god was commanding it as they maintain the concept of "objective" morality is somehow better than a morality derived by reason and rational human constraints.

We have a couple of theists running around this forum that do just that.

is it Q ? its Q isn't it Laugh out load
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21-03-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
(21-03-2015 08:41 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(21-03-2015 07:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  They operate under divine command theory, if their god commands it, it is moral by default, it's simply our lowly human intellect that fails to comprehend this god's ways.

This leads to Christians stating that the worldwide genocide of the flood myth was "just" or that they would kill their children if they knew their god was commanding it as they maintain the concept of "objective" morality is somehow better than a morality derived by reason and rational human constraints.

We have a couple of theists running around this forum that do just that.

is it Q ? its Q isn't it Laugh out load

Nailed it!Laugh out load
The other is COTW.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-03-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
(21-03-2015 09:14 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(21-03-2015 08:41 AM)Ace Wrote:  is it Q ? its Q isn't it Laugh out load

Nailed it!Laugh out load
The other is COTW.

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21-03-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
(21-03-2015 07:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  They operate under divine command theory, if their god commands it, it is moral by default, it's simply our lowly human intellect that fails to comprehend this god's ways.

This leads to Christians stating that the worldwide genocide of the flood myth was "just" or that they would kill their children if they knew their god was commanding it as they maintain the concept of "objective" morality is somehow better than a morality derived by reason and rational human constraints.

We have a couple of theists running around this forum that do just that.

It's good to point out god's "plan" as a omniscient and omnipotent being who knows everything in advance . But a theist blindness is so pervasive they believe because they want to believe and nothing will sway them from this comfort zone. It's too scary not to believe.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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21-03-2015, 11:38 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
It's not so much that God allows evil to happen, but in the Bible he commands it, and commits attrocities himself.

What could the population of earth have done to deserve the almost complete annihilation of the species?

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21-03-2015, 11:41 AM
RE: A popular method of "debunking" the Bible that I still don't get
I just chalk it all up to mythology.

It's all been done long before the bible. Drinking Beverage


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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