A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
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03-05-2012, 08:48 AM
A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
http://logicspeaks.com/a-present-day-exa...-are-born/

For me, the main takeaway is that:
1) As absurd as this particular example is, it's representative of how all other religions were born (e.g. they are just as absurd)
2) Though it's sad that anyone would fall into a thinking trap like this, I'm sure that there are people in that tribe that are much cooler to hang with than some of the folks I see within the atheist and skeptic community.
3) Non-dualism is an interesting concept

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03-05-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
I was talking about this a little while back. It is a compelling argument to those who have ears to hear. Sadly, modern theists would say, "well those people are ignorant and wouldn't know any better." This is, people in the bronze age were ignorant and didn't know any better. Yet, they created religions left and right. Every region had a different religion because every region had different factors and characteristics that guided the formation of their religions. It shows that religion must be pure fiction, based upon legend and myth.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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03-05-2012, 10:02 AM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
It's the same when you try to point out that here were other gods before and after the one from the bible. Or how elements from the christ story are identical to other popular mythical figures o the times.

The faithful wear blinders for the same reasons they buy into it in the first place.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-05-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
(03-05-2012 08:57 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I was talking about this a little while back. It is a compelling argument to those who have ears to hear. Sadly, modern theists would say, "well those people are ignorant and wouldn't know any better." This is, people in the bronze age were ignorant and didn't know any better. Yet, they created religions left and right. Every region had a different religion because every region had different factors and characteristics that guided the formation of their religions. It shows that religion must be pure fiction, based upon legend and myth.
That's why I think it's important to teach kids about phenomenon like cargo cults early in life, and hopefully, via the public education system. That way, there's no need to be overtly atheist about it (which obviously won't fly anytime soon). Instead, it helps build the skeptical, analytical, and critical perspective that said youth can use at some point in life to assess their own beliefs.

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03-05-2012, 03:08 PM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
His first assertion made me shut off. "It's reality". That's cockamamie. 100% of the 4-5 billion eh? Is there any more hyperbole you'd like to pull from your ass?

I'm a social scientist. I actually had to study a lot to understand what I understand. Crap like this:
Quote:Something completely natural occurred, people (or one person in the case
of Scientology) wrote it down in the form of a story filled with
supernatural splendor and moral self-righteousness, it was passed along
from generation to generation, and now, the people that are
indoctrinated into the belief system are convinced that not only is the
story 100% accurate (regardless of the obvious inconsistencies and
inaccuracies) but that it is proof or undeniable evidence of divinity.
And in some cases, the believer is also convinced that theirs is the
only true story, divinity, etc.
Pisses me right the fuck off as much as the writings of creationists piss off biologists. It's just straight up unsalvageable garbage. The sad part is that plenty of people are more than happy to pick up this talking-point-ball and run with it and call themselves reasonable as they do it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-05-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
(03-05-2012 03:08 PM)Ghost Wrote:  His first assertion made me shut off. "It's reality". That's cockamamie. 100% of the 4-5 billion eh? Is there any more hyperbole you'd like to pull from your ass?

I'm a social scientist. I actually had to study a lot to understand what I understand. Crap like this:
Quote:Something completely natural occurred, people (or one person in the case
of Scientology) wrote it down in the form of a story filled with
supernatural splendor and moral self-righteousness, it was passed along
from generation to generation, and now, the people that are
indoctrinated into the belief system are convinced that not only is the
story 100% accurate (regardless of the obvious inconsistencies and
inaccuracies) but that it is proof or undeniable evidence of divinity.
And in some cases, the believer is also convinced that theirs is the
only true story, divinity, etc.
Pisses me right the fuck off as much as the writings of creationists piss off biologists. It's just straight up unsalvageable garbage. The sad part is that plenty of people are more than happy to pick up this talking-point-ball and run with it and call themselves reasonable as they do it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
You believe that his assertion was meant to include 100% of believers, rather than a majority sampling? Would you rather that he used the cautious language that many of us skeptics do, such as "For many of them, it's reality?" Would that have made it readable?

Do you think that it was all "unsalvageable garbage"? It's quite fair to say that 100% of it is not unsalvageable or garbage, but then again, you weren't implying that every word of it was just that, but rather a majority sampling.

I think your inference of hyperbole is drawn from a biased view. You've made it clear that you don't like amateur blogs about subjects in which you feel you are an expert, but that doesn't automatically make them wrong. I feel that it was written quite reasonably, and the main point is logically sound, even though I'm also not a fan of how that point was expressed.

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03-05-2012, 05:21 PM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
Hey, Starcrash.

Facts and insight would have made it readable.

I posted a quote and then commented on that specific post. Don't pretend otherwise.

Being amateurish crap doesn't make it wrong. Being wrong makes it wrong.

I think your inference of my inference is drawn from a biased view. Your move, sir.

Written quite reasonably doesn't make up for researched fucking terribly Cool

I've officially given it more time than it deserves. Just imagine that it was a rant about creationism and you'll be able to empathise with my level of revulsion.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-05-2012, 06:26 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2012 06:32 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
(03-05-2012 05:21 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Starcrash.

Facts and insight would have made it readable.

I posted a quote and then commented on that specific post. Don't pretend otherwise.

Being amateurish crap doesn't make it wrong. Being wrong makes it wrong.

I think your inference of my inference is drawn from a biased view. Your move, sir.

Written quite reasonably doesn't make up for researched fucking terribly Cool

I've officially given it more time than it deserves. Just imagine that it was a rant about creationism and you'll be able to empathise with my level of revulsion.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
"Being wrong makes it wrong". This is the epitome of circular reasoning --- a tautology. Please support your assertion that it was "wrong" with an argument. The claim that it was "amateurish crap" was my attempt at clarifying your argument, which paired with "it's hyperbole" seemed to be your only arguments against it, and I've addressed those.

I claimed that you were biased. That wasn't really to refute your arguments, but rather to frame why I believed you were disregarding it as amateurish crap. Calling someone's argument wrong because of bias is Ad Hominem Circumstantial. I think you're simply pointing out my bias to imply that I am unwilling or unable to think critically of my own argument (also implied when you ask me to see it as a rant about creationism). Because I argue with atheists and atheistic claims nearly as much as I do with theists, I hope I've already demonstrated satisfactorily over time that I can think critically. I didn't see the blog as a "rant" or "researched fucking terribly", and again with nothing but these assertions I have no recourse but to admit that I don't see either of these. You have to provide an example or an argument specific to the blog besides generalizations.

Let me enlighten you with an example. You claim that the blog contains no facts. However:

Quote:it was passed along from generation to generation, and now, the people that are indoctrinated into the belief system are convinced that not only is the story 100% accurate (regardless of the obvious inconsistencies and inaccuracies)

...the blog states that beliefs are taught by parents to children (the "indoctrinated into the belief system" "from generation to generation" and that fundamentalism exists ("the people" "are convinced" "the story is 100% accurate). I know both of these things are true from personal experience, and because they are common knowledge, citation by the blog's author is not required. These may not be stunning facts to you, and you probably didn't learn anything new, but it disproves your claim that the blog did not contain facts.

Insight is a little trickier to prove. It's subjective because anyone who already knew about the cited "cargo cults" and has already contemplated these ideas presented will probably not gain insight. I take it by your refutation of insight that these things are true of you. However, I think it's fair to say that these aren't true about everyone. Statistically there's a likelihood that there exist people who haven't already heard about cargo cults.

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03-05-2012, 07:44 PM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
Hey, Starcrash.

I wrote this whole post and then deleted it because I realised something. If I respond, I'm gonna get sucked into a conversation that I have zero interest in being a part of.

If you love the article, more power to you. It's shit. Shit like a Fox news report or a creationist deconstruction of evolution. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-05-2012, 08:40 PM
RE: A present day example of how all religious belief doctrines are born
(03-05-2012 07:44 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Starcrash.

I wrote this whole post and then deleted it because I realised something. If I respond, I'm gonna get sucked into a conversation that I have zero interest in being a part of.

If you love the article, more power to you. It's shit. Shit like a Fox news report or a creationist deconstruction of evolution. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
The fact that you're reacting this emotionally tells me that the post struck a chord.

And that's good enough for me.

Never mind the fact that it home with folks like Starcrash who are extremely skeptical even towards material with atheistic leanings (I know this because she called me out on something just earlier this week).

Since you don't want to discuss it any longer, I won't bother to address your assertions. If you change your mind, I'm your huckleberry.

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