A question for atheists.
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09-03-2014, 12:00 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
Oh man, so much for the simmering...

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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09-03-2014, 12:07 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 11:56 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  So you are strawmanning us. Check.

All atheists I have conversed with, whether personally or online, have done so.

(08-03-2014 11:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And I think it's rude and condescending of you to demand that we "take your road less traveled". Do you have any idea how many idiots come to this forum spouting the same exact line of shit as you?

I did not force you to participate or respond to my thread post. If you are not interested, then you can ignore me.



(08-03-2014 11:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Absolutely. Believing in fairy tales is retarded. It retards a child's intellectual development. As well as an adult's.


I did not suggest anything about fairy tales. It seems it is you who is strawmanning here.



(08-03-2014 11:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I just did. All your "question" amounts to is a badly concealed attempt to shift your burden of proof. What REAL evidence do you have of whatever sky fairy you believe in?

My question is in regards to how you would convince a theist of your position. I am not making a proposition myself in this case.
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09-03-2014, 12:09 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 11:59 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Many of us were not raised in homes with religion. So when we hear bible stories it just sounds REALLY far fetched and make believe.

Imagine never hearing the story of Santa Clause till you were age 25, and someone tries to tell you it's true.

It's that moment when you say WTF? that's bullshit, why can't you see it?

You forgot the bit about, if you don't belive in santa after being told about it, then you will be gruesomly tortured for eternity. Even if it was just 3rd hand info from your cousins neighbor Fred.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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09-03-2014, 12:10 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 11:53 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 11:49 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Everyone comes to agnosticism or atheism from different directions and on their own terms. Some take a short time, others take decades.

Few of us came to atheism the same way (unlike religion when most are indoctrinated into).

I came into atheism via mythology and sociology/anthropology. What worked for me, wouldn't work well for someone who doesn't at least share the interest.

That is very interesting! Smile

What particular aspects of your studies into those subjects helped sway you?

When you study people, you begin to realize why (mostly) men invented religion. Same reasons myths, parables, fables, tall tales and legends happen. Polytheism, paganism, monotheism...Evolution of religion often echos the progress (or lack) in a society.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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09-03-2014, 12:19 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 12:24 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 10:28 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  While I know that most of you find it more appropriate to challenge the theists on why they believe that they believe, I'd like you to take the road less traveled...

What positive argument(s) or evidence(s) do you have which may convince a theist to change their minds?

Note: I'm not asking you for reasons that COMPEL the theist to change their minds, but rather for reasons that COULD change their minds.

I would truly appreciate your responses, and I hope to see some thought-provoking ones.

Thank you.

Do they value evidence for determining truth and the state of reality? If they do, then there is hope for that person; it not, there no amount of evidence (or lack thereof) will likely change their minds.

Simply put, there is complete and total lack of evidence in support of the supernatural; from faeries and ghosts to angels and gods. Now someone might retort that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absences', which can be true, but not in the case of specific god concepts posited by religion. Yahweh supposedly created the entire universe some 6000~10000 years ago, created a flat earth encompassed by a solid firmament supported by 4 pillars. This is what we would expect to see if the claims about Yahweh were true. We do not see any of this, reality completely contradicts the claims of Yahweh, and so this is evidence against belief in Yahweh. This god concept and the religions build around him make claims on the nature of reality, and the one that can be tested are shown to continuously be false. So why should we believe the books when they tell us about Heaven, Hell, sin and redemption? They've been wrong about everything else!'

There is also John W. Loftus' 'Outside Test for Faith' (hereafter referred to as the OTF). The basis of this test is rather simple.

Iron Chariots.org Wrote:The Outsider test for Faith (OTF) is a criterion for rational belief. Religious affiliation is largely determined by that of one's parents and native country. Believers are encouraged to test their beliefs by trying to see them from the perspective of someone outside the faith. Using this criterion, believers would be required to treat books such as the Bible with the same critical skepticism that they would apply to competing holy books, such as the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

The problem with all religions is that you have to lower your standards of evidence and credulity to such a low level that one you can believe in one of them, if you're apply your standards evenly across the board, then you should believe in most of them. If you are a Christian because you're credulous enough to accept the Resurrection as true, then you should also believe that those accused of Witchcraft in Salem Massachusetts were actually witches, that Muhammad actually flew to Heaven on a winged horse, and that that Joseph Smith was actually visited by the angel Moroni and gifted with a set of golden plates, and that the statues, lighting bolts, collapsing cliffs, and other magical armaments defended the Temple of Delphi from a Persian invasion.

We do not need any gods to explain biodiversity, chemistry, physics, mathematics, or any other aspect of reality or history. Whenever we get to the edge of our understanding, the honest thing to do is to acknowledge that as of yet, 'we don't know' and not 'I don't know, therefore god did it'. There is no positive evidence for god, any and all evidence I've ever seen posited has always been negative evidence; science can't explain phenomena X, therefore god exists. This is especially sad whenever science actually has explained phenomena X (such as how evolution explains biodiversity and the origins of humans), but they're too uneducated to understand.

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09-03-2014, 12:25 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 12:10 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  When you study people, you begin to realize why (mostly) men invented religion. Same reasons myths, parables, fables, tall tales and legends happen. Polytheism, paganism, monotheism...Evolution of religion often echos the progress (or lack) in a society.

I think it simply comes from a human obsession with wanting to have an answer for everything. That's usually the big creationist defense: "Oh, well science can't tell me what it was like before the Big Bang? Well, that obviously proves my invisible sky daddy and religious dogma to be true, because it's far more intelligent to make any ridiculous claim than to simply claim that you have not yet found the answer to a question!"

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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09-03-2014, 12:27 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 12:07 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 11:56 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  So you are strawmanning us. Check.

All atheists I have conversed with, whether personally or online, have done so.

All atheists have insisted that you back your fairy tale claims with evidence? If so, then rightly so.

Quote:
(08-03-2014 11:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And I think it's rude and condescending of you to demand that we "take your road less traveled". Do you have any idea how many idiots come to this forum spouting the same exact line of shit as you?

I did not force you to participate or respond to my thread post. If you are not interested, then you can ignore me.

I will post in whatever thread I choose.

Quote:
(08-03-2014 11:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Absolutely. Believing in fairy tales is retarded. It retards a child's intellectual development. As well as an adult's.


I did not suggest anything about fairy tales. It seems it is you who is strawmanning here.

I'm not strawmanning X-tardianity at all when I point out that it's a bunch of fairy tales.

Quote:
(08-03-2014 11:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I just did. All your "question" amounts to is a badly concealed attempt to shift your burden of proof. What REAL evidence do you have of whatever sky fairy you believe in?

My question is in regards to how you would convince a theist of your position. I am not making a proposition myself in this case.

My position is that I don't believe in fairy tales. Including x-tard fairy tales. All you are doing is trying to shift the burden of proof. We don't have to make a proposition at all. I don't believe your fairy tales any more than you as an X-tard believe Hindu or Tibetan Lamaist fairy tales. You are just as much an atheist regarding their fairy tales as I am regarding yours.

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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-03-2014, 12:29 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
Well thread ruined. Bye

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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09-03-2014, 12:52 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
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09-03-2014, 12:53 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
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